Gumps and idoc timers

Negative. We are simply some folks providing some competition, as to eliminate the idea of uncontested IDOC'ing.

My only argument to this whole thing is why are we even able to use a skill on a sign? Seems like a broken mechanic of a skill if you ask me? Remove that and the whole part of afk info gathering goes out the window. Information like that is a valuable resource, just as much as raw materials, so why are we able to obtain it while afk?

Either way it will still be controlled by the group(any group is better the one person) that puts in the work.

Removing the Item ID aspect and adding ACTUAL randomized timers (the very intention originally was to have the timer randomized to a degree utilizing world saves and what not, but it simply doesn't add enough random time for it to matter) is not intended to "punish" the current players with a monopoly, though it would make it so that they would need to play the game to actually acquire the timers and gain loot (why is that a bad thing?) Chris would not need to babysit the people in jail for AFKing because... that whole system is already automated, so it would add zero responsibilities on his part.

Ahh, I wasn't aware. I've never been to UO prison. You won't find a single prison Ogre or Dragon tattoo on these noble arms, that's for sure.

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Neither is clicking on a house sign while dead, so we're not entirely sticking to a "direct monetary gain" rule. But that might be a good objective rule for deciding what to gump and what not to gump.

note: rare gathering is already gumped.

I don't like the slippery-slope arguments in this thread because we're already on the "slope" and I think everyone agrees we should be somewhere on the slope. Anyone in favor of the mining gump (which is mostly everyone) agrees there has to be some limiting to AFK macros. So simply asking where it will stop isn't productive. It will stop when the community and staff get to a point where further items have been debated on their own merits and a determination has been made.

And this gets a lot easier IMO if there's an objective definition or rule about where things will stop, i.e. Cynic's "direct monetary gain" which I guess could be pretty simply rephrased as "does it put something in your pack or no?".

mis-post, sorry

That is precisely what I'm getting at! This was not a rare gather so I would not have gotten a gump. This was an IDOC looting. I got a 2mill+ item while afk for coding a simple razor macro. Was it illegal? No. Should it be? ?? How do you prevent it? Eliminate scavanger? So I won't be able to pick up regs from the floor when running through dungeons? Or cleaning "capet bombs"? I understand the sentiment, but over-regulating will only lead us further down the slope. Where will the slope end?

This is a classic defense.

You don't want these changes so you've framed them in such a way that implies they would be to your benefit. But the reality is these mechanics have been working to your advantage for years and you desperately don't want them to change.

This is hilariously transparent:

1. 'Make it all disappear. Now the little guy can't pick up stuff off the ground and catch up to your wealth'
The reality: This is how you made and will continue to make your wealth. This is how your wealth outpaces the little guy's wealth, and will continue to do so as long as the mechanics stay as is.

2. 'Item id doesn't work. The little guy won't be able to compete with you without afk sign clicking.'
The reality: This is how you efficiently run your operation. You automate it better than the little guy, you have enforcers to kill the little guy's bot so he can't get the timer.

3. 'Randomized times give you an advantage'
The reality: you can't efficiently keep a big group to steam roll people during a large window. The only way the operation works is if you get the timer with little effort and plan to have everyone on at an exact time to kill the competition.

To be completely fair - there's nothing wrong with you playing as efficiently as possible within the rules of the game. I would never say otherwise. But to suggest that randomized idoc timers and AFK gumps for automated sign checking benefits your group and hurts the little guys - an absolute and transparent lie.

@Tpain All the people in this thread that are arguing against these changes are part of that particular idoc group (Cynic, Gideon, El Horno, Larloch.) And more of them will be appearing before the thread is over to tell you how the proposed changes won't help anything and try to derail the thread.

@Everyone else: This topic should have been pushed in 2014. This server is not exactly in a mechanically developing stage of it's life. You will likely get no staff reply, and if you do it will be something vague about how people shouldn't hate others for being organized. There will be no changes to these mechanics. Those people that continue to push this topic are likely to be banned from the forum/irc or server.



Edit: The idoc crew appears and says "these changes would benefit us!" but for some reason they voted no to the changes. See for yourself.

Now, have you ever known a business person to get out and vote for something that hurts them and benefits everyone else?

I agree with everything Dalavar says.

I disagree with everything El Horno says and want to add, that he was part of IDERP (the dominating IDOC group), which explains the answers. Remember, this is my personal opinion.

I have actively fought the bots of IDERP and TOTALLY disagree with Cynic (who is also a core member of IDERP). They would totally starve and don't be able to attend most IDOCs without their AFK macro timer bots. TOTALLY. Half of the day, these people aren't online. When they are online it's only a few. They never ever manually click these house signs unless they are dead already and it's a valuable/important IDOC. I do know that, because I did manually click these signs and watched their movements.

My opinion has always been the same. I also created a Anti-Afk-Reg-Buying thread before and I will simply repeat my stance: More power to attended gameplay. No rewards for AFK gameplay. Get rid of it at all and punish it!

But Staff (= Chris) already answered in my previous thread against afk reg buying, that he hasn't the slightest intention to introduce AFK gumps for reg buying (something he himself did on another shard and became very rich from). The statistics and polls showing significant approval of measures against AFK gaming and AFK profits are simply ignored. And most likely there will never ever be a nerf of the IDOC mechanics (nerf meaning that it has to be more attended or that it is randomized). Our Gamemaster and Shard owner was also a famous IDOC master on another Shard that is not to be named, and seems to have every symphathy for the way it is handled here. There is a reason, why Staff is handing out "TC the Rat Bastard" named Ratmen trophies (TC being a huge defector and whistleblower of the IDERP guild's methods). Chris actively decided, that naming trophies like this is okay. It clearly shows his affiliation and what system he favours. Oh, and btw, the whole IDOC whistleblow (now IDOC guide) is exactly the system our Shard owner himself used on another Shard for years.

I believe this thread is manly supposed to open some eyes of the newer people around here and thus will be removed soon(tm) or locked as happened before.

That means: You guys, everybody here, have to beat IDERPs greedy asses in their home arena and to their rules. And you can do it. We can do it. We have done it. Others have done it too. The biggest problem is the lack of durability. Most people are reasonable enough to actually hate that style of gaming although it makes you rich. So you pretty often have to be a greedy person to keep doing it. And everybody knows where the greedy people end up... in IDERP.

Yeah, I'm not ok with @Chris or another GM naming trophies to insult or taunt other players. While funny, the taunting of @Blaise in an official event likely helped push him out (which I know some in this thread think is a good thing, but I do not)

I agree that there is probably a degree of leniency to the IDOC "profession" and that the wealth gap has and will continue to grow as long as it isn't changed.

Removing Item ID's ridiculous ability to read signs is a start, but random windows makes sense too

AFK reg buying should have been killed a long time ago



Full disclosure: I was part of the IDOC group for a short time, but stopped because I just wasn't playing enough then. Also, I'm not saying wealth is inherently bad. This is not a judgement statement, just what I perceive as being true.

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Me Too!!

You know the sad thing is, you've done such a good job crafting your image here that 25% of the people will read your reply and not realize you're trolling.

Am I missing something? Dalavar and I agree that gumps are fine. Gump it. Add a gump. Gump.

How about you vote that way then?

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because the poll is horribly worded to included afk gumps for reg buying. OR if you wanted to vote yes, your vote for gumps is tied to randomization as well.
Again....
gumps=fine
randomization/public announcements= bad (unless a player wants to get his own timers and announce publicly, power to them)

This poll is just trying to do too much.

As I tried to say before, the slope will end when staff and community discuss and debate the next item down the slope and decide nothing should be done about it. At least in my eyes that's when it would end. We don't need to drag a concrete proposal 50 times further than what it was. It's a concrete discussion about a concrete thing. If people want to discuss your situation with Scavenger, they're welcome to do so and I think it would make an interesting new thread. But you're just polluting a thread right now with off-topic discussion, and not contributing at all to the debate of the merits of what Jack initially asked about.

And yeah, BlackEye, I thought El Horno were relatively on the same page around Gumps, though I guess maybe not around the OP motivations and/or the ultimate downstream economic impact.

This thread is nothing more then a soap box for lazy people to stand on, and try to make their wizard tears have that much more of an impact.