My thread on stealing oddities

Just gonna make a thread for myself and staff here on things I don't think flush quite right with the skill. One thing I've noticed is that occasionally I will fail and stay blue (this is 100% wrong) other little things such as weights are off (which I always say, but I'm going to start taking some screenshots just for reference and put them here so staff can see what I"m talking about.) Here is one today, A complete fail on a stack of around 22 pearl, the guard is out of line of sight and called guards. In the past two days I've gotten insta gw on 1 stone items more than 2-3 times, and I was testing stealing 10 stone items at which one point I failed 4 times in a row. (I'm fairly sure in era you might get a rare fail 2x in a row, but never 4, the chars are supposed to be "GRAND"masters, not I only succeed 1 out of 5 times Failmasters


On prodo you would ocassionaly fail on 8-10 stone items, but it was rare, to get gw on 1 stone items almost never happened unless it was a player calling guards, not an npc noticed call. You never failed on stacks (you would get at least 20some I think, never one) and if I had a pile of regs that was 40-80, it wouldn't take me 5-10 tries to steal it all, esp when there is like 15 left and I start hitting bunches of 1-4.


Anyhow, I'm going to try to put feedback here to get the class as fluid and fun as it was on prodo. The weights make a huge part of that. Esp considering that with gws being so horrible (before seeing through walls was removed, that made in town stealing almost impossible after the addition to guards everywhere((and there are guards on almost every corner of every bank, there are 4x the guards in towns that I remember in era) The weights are way off though, that's my biggest concern right now.

If you assume that a GM stealing a 10-stone item is a 50/50 proposition, it's not unlikely that you'd fail 4 times in a row, given enough coin flips. Of course, I have no idea what the chance of success of such a steal attempt *should* be, but 50/50 sounds about right.

Even with a 50/50 chance, you could theoretically fail more than 4x in a row. To assume otherwise, would be to opperate under the gambler's fallacy. Just because you've failed 3x in a row, doesn't mean that your chances are any different (or greater) on your fourth attempt. I feel your pain by the way--CBD's are the same way. I could turn in 10 filled large bods and get 0 CBD's. I can't claim the code is broken though; I just had a bad stroke of bad luck.

But for the class overall, there are enough other balances to compensate for weight. (Guardwhacks, Player Called Guardwhacks, Always Grey, Template limits from hiding/stealth/stealing/snooping, etc.. I think maybe balancing the weight with other areas would be a better way to look at it. Gm stealing - 10 stones, a rough thing of what I'm thinking would be (and we all know I'm not a numbers guy) 1-4 stones - no fails 5-6 stones fails but with message only, no autoguardwhacks (player initiatied) 7-9 stones 33ish% chance of autogw and or player initiated. 10 stones 40% fails with both AGW and PIGW. And this would be something at the gm level of the skill. With stacks it's kind of horrible. Even if there is 10 of a reg there, I"ll still only steal 1. The stacks should reflect move favorably to the 10 stone maximum. This will open up letting a thief steal in town from active players and carry supplies with less risk of dying to a random out of sight npc on a low weight item. Active players will be able to fight or use age old preventive techniques. Weight adjustments would also put a boost into the pvp type thief in the field and for factions. The thief class is a fun class, with the pvp aspects and it can be used for pve as well, I'm of the understanding we're getting a rogue quest expansion, and that's going to make the class even more fun. So I'm not trying to make it so the class can run through people, but more competitive and fun as a whole. (wow, I just wrote a mini novel)

And on prodo from what I remembered when you were gm, you didn't fail much. (smithing, provo never failed, lockingpicking never failed or broke lockpicks (you kept your newbies)), etc. It just feels like that is what is off here. I quit around the time powerscrolls were introduced and maybe the game took on the feel that we have now, but the thief class was a blast, so I'm just putting my feed back on it as I play.

My obligatory post, whenever this topic comes up:

I'm still of the opinion that there shouldn't be random numbers involved in thieving, at all.

I don't think victims like the current system, because they never know when they can call the guards and when they can't. This especially burns the britches of newer players (e.g., "Thief stole from me, he turned gray, I called the guards, but nothing happened? WTF, shard is bugged!") Not to mention the whole perma-gray mechanic. There's a big burden of knowledge here. I don't think there's even a guide in the guide section that completely explains how the system works.

I can't imagine thieves like this system either. Who likes insta-guard-whacks because they failed an RNG check for 12 Mandrake Root?

The ideal system, in my mind, should reward things like line of sight, being behind your target, being nonchalant, and making quick getaways.

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Ah, on this my opinion is the opposite. If you remove the random element, then you allow thieves a ton of freedom and flexibility. If I know with certainty the result of my attempt to steal various items in a pack, it is very easy to optimize my approach and have a getaway plan for precisely the item I choose. Removing randomization basically lets thieves take whatever they want, within some limitation (whether that's 8 stones or 10 stones or whatever). Every other aspect of this game uses randomization; removing that aspect from this particular avenue is only going to be more frustrating for the victims, who will be relieved of specific possessions at the whim of the thief.

I'm all for re-thinking the formulas for success rate, gray rate, and guard-whack rate, but the more potential ways in which someone can have "0%" or "100%" in those formulas, the more overpowered thieves would be.

Presumably the person who gets to keep their 12 Mandrake Root

Of couse, it wouldn't be a mechanical post from me without some numbers. My .02:

Ability to attempt to steal an item: Skill/10+2 >= ItemWeight
Chance to steal the item = 50 + (Skill - ItemWeight*10)
Chance to be "noticed" by NPC = Skill - 100 + (# of NPCs with LOS) * (10 - AvgDistanceOfNPCsFromVictim) * (ItemWeight/2)
Chance to be "noticed" by player = Skill - 100 + (ItemWeight * 5)

Being "noticed" by either player or NPC gives the players a message and makes the thief whackable under the normal rules.

Examples assuming GM thief:
10-stone item, 2 NPCs an average of 4 tiles from theft
Chance to steal = 50 + (100 - 100) = 50%
Chance to be noticed by NPC = 100 - 100 + (2 * 4 * 10/2) - 100 = 0 + 40 = 40%
Chance to be noticed by player = 100 - 100 + 50 = 50%

So you have a 50% chance of getting the item, a 40% chance of being auto-whacked, and a 50% chance of being player-guard-whacked. This is a bad idea unless the item is really nice. It's heavy, there's NPCs around, etc.

10-stone item, 0 NPCs
Chance to steal = 50 + (100 - 100) = 50%
Chance to be noticed by NPC = 100 - 100 + (0 * 0 * 10/2) = 100 - 100 + 0 = 0%
Chance to be noticed by player = 100 - 100 + 50 = 50%

So you have a 50% chance of getting the item and and 50% chance of being player-guard-whacked. No NPCs around. Item is heavy, but only the player can have you guardwhacked. Sneakness is the key - if the player sees you, you're probably a dead duck. If not, you're scot free.

1-stone item, 2 NPCs an average of 4 tiles from theft
Chance to steal = 50 + (100 - 10) = 140%
Chance to be noticed by NPC = 100 - 100 + (2 * 4 * 1/2) = 0 + 4 = 4%
Chance to be noticed by player = 100 - 100 + 5 = 5%

So you have a 100% chance of getting the item, a 4% chance of auto-guard-whack, and a 5% chance of a player being able to guard whack. Very high-percentage chance at a theft, but the presence of nearby NPCs makes it not quite a sure thing.

If you attack me, you will go gray (and I can call the guards on you if we're in town). There's no RNG there. Someone taking my valuables should be treated in a similar fashion, in my opinion.
(Note: I'm fine with stealing success rates still being randomized, with item weight playing an important role in that success rate.)

But yes, I would want a system with more guarantees - for both parties. It should be more interactive, rather than just a roll of the dice. If someone goes AFK with valuables on them, a thief shouldn't have a problem taking items from them. If someone is chatting or otherwise distracted, it should likewise be a fair bit easier to steal from them. On the flip side, if I (the player, not the character) catch a thief red-handed and I call the guards before they escape, the guards should damn well show up!

How the system works to accomplish that can be debated - I have quite a few ideas and I'm sure others could come up with even better ones. But bottom line, I think there's a lot of room for History Perfected (tm) to be applied to thieving, and it doesn't necessarily mean just tinkering with RNG numbers. The line of sight change several months back was the best thing to happen to UO thieving in ... ever, heh. More changes like that ! (for example, character and NPC facing being taken into account)

They're too busy being upset because the guards didn't come when their platinum got stolen earlier.

I would absolutely love actual LoS checks for NPCs and players (ie: direction they are facing being relevant).

I can fizzle Gate or Resurrection, MORE THAN 10 TIMES IN A ROW. This is rare, but not so much so that most have experienced something similar. Having 100 Magery, puts me 'two circles' of skill higher than what is required and as such should not fail nearly so much. I would love to see some adjustment in the failure rates at what is known as Grandmaster level, but as others have said, it needs to be across the board or not at all.

I also agree the vague understanding of when one can call guards on a thief needs to be addressed. I think the only times you should NOT be able to call in a guard whack, is on a successful steal which would turn the thief perma-grey, not actual grey, even to the victim. If you are 'noticed' stealing and item, successful or not, you're flagged grey and able to get whacked by a guard call, or freely attacked by anyone who sees that you are grey.


To summarize, Jack is bad and I disagree with everything he says because I know everything about a class I never have or will play.

Just a thought to further discussion on this thread. What if there were two possible guard events

1. Guard whack
2. Guard paralyze

Adjust the randomizer so that if you were the victim the result is guard whack. However, if you were just a witness the result is a guard paralyze that lasts two mins (same as criminal timer).

Could be expounded more, but just a basic idea. For instance maybe it takes two witnesses for a wack, or one from the victim.

I like the Guard paralyze but two minutes would be too long. I think a sufficient 15-30 seconds would suffice. In your example, a brazen theft attempt that fails (ie: more than 5 witnesses) the thief gets whacked. If fewer than 5 witnesses are present, the guard appears and 'detains' the thief on the spot for X amount of time.

Just a thought but probably not going to be liked much

Guards should serve the powerless, much like IRL. Thief steals from my smith, and the guards paralyze him... I ain't gonna be able to do much. I suppose mob mentality could kick in then, but... I dunno. Yelling "purse snatcher!" in a role-playing game isn't quite the role I want to play.

Basoosh, I guess if you want to argue gray-ness being a 100% chance, I see the merit of that (though it was not like that on OSI). As far as whackability, and success rate, I remain unconvinced that either should be binary. 100% whackability is too much of a nerf, IMO, for thieves.

My thought:
1) success is based on a skill roll ( 50/50 for 10 stones @ gm) .
2) the thief will always go permagray. he will show gray name to the victim or other witnesses based on a random chance determined by his skill. (ie. sometimes he can show a blue name to the victim)
3) for the first 30 or so seconds after the theft, guards can ALWAYS be called, wheter he is showing a blue or a gray name
4) guards can be called ONLY by the victim. a witness can attack the thief himself, say to other that he his permagray (thus attackable) or solicit the victim to call guards.
5) npcs has no part in this ie. they cant call guards nor be considered witnesses.

I played a disarm thief almost the entire UOR time period and I remember having a lot of trouble with 10stone War Hammers. I think stealing something 10 stones was pretty much 50/50. Failing 4x in a row wasn't unheard of if I remember right.

I also remember getting guard whacked on 1-stone items on live every once in a while. I would say it was like 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 but it did happen.

Oh man. Don't get me started on making a thief and pointing out all the details, I ain't got time for that.

However I'll throw out a few tidbits I know from memory.

At GM Stealing, a 10 stone item was like. 2 times out of 5 chance. I have this ingrained in my head because that time between 95 and GM stealing with dye tubs on a packhorse, I knew how often I would have to get out of "the trance" and restock the pack horse.

9 stone item, 1 out of 5 chances. Anything under 8 was pretty much 100% success, with a VERY RARE fail.

NPCs at one time could not see through walls - but COULD see through windows. I had Britian mapped out to the tile where not to steal outside certain buildings. Then the bastards could see through walls and funtimes were thin.

You could outrun the guards on a horse - thats why they started shooting lighting bolts.

You could successfully steal an item and not be noticed - however the victim would see you grey BUT NOBODY ELSE. He would start attecking you if he felt like it, but everyone else hitting all-names wouldn't understand why he got to attack you.

If you stole and WAS NOTICED, then everyone say you grey - and guards could be called on you (If the NPC didn't call on you already)

If you got off screen and your victim yelled guards - they guards couldn't see who to attack from his position. It was imperative to run off screen and keep running for roughly 30 seconds, despite taking 2 minutes for your name to turn blue FOR EVERYONE EXCEPT THE VICTIM. You could return in two minutes and everyone but your victim sees you blue. Now, if someone tried to attack you after the 30 seconds but before the 2 minutes - bam - that 1 minute 30 second counter restarts, and you need 1 minute 30 seconds for the blue ot return.

Man there's so much more stuck in my head, but without having a thief here I can't point out what's wrong.

If you're the real Joe, then make a thief and back me up with my input lol. You get trolled to death here for anything, it's kind of suck. Oh and welcome to UOR

Damn straight I'm the real Joe.

Member that time we invaded Mugen in the name of USA! USA! USA!

http://crazyjoe.us/crazyjoe.old/ultimaonline2/mugen/red-17.jpg

So I was poking around on my old server, and found things long forgotten. Damn, I'm getting old and my memory stinks. How did I forget about Rowan of S|S ?!

HOWEVER, I did find an old episode that was marked private....but I think it's been long enough.

The day I learned how to reveal hidden GMs/EMs, extorted a macroer, and later realized I was just "Interviewed" for being an Event Moderator for UO. Zilo ran into me a few times before with my piracy naughtiness at sea, and I was always courteous and kind to him - showing him how I pirated boats using legal mechanics. The EM I found hidden, following me around, was recommending me to fill the empty spot with Keiron's departure, and it just so happened that I was online and they decided to see what I was up to - catching me right in the middle of my shinanigans. When I learned what that was all about the next day after getting the most awesome email ever, I realized I had to keep this episode private

http://crazyjoe.us/crazyjoe.old/ultimaonline2/pirate/bee.htm

What Jack means by "trolled to death" is that he is terrible at engaging in conversation without breaking down into tears of rage and name calling.

It's adorable.


I do encourage you to build a thief though and help him identify any particular pain points therein that could possibly be adjusted to suit the goal of perfection.