Yes, I understand from a 'pvp is all that matters to me' perspective, you could give a rat's ass if you ruin someone's entire day of gaming because you feel their template is so OP. How about suck it up and go do something else like fight people who give a crap? You're basically asking for permission to fuck people over. Not just kill them and take their loot but to decommission them for an entire day, potentially. They aren't criminals, they don't deserve statloss-like time outs from the game because you feel like being a dick that day. Please oh please, can we add more options for being a complete prick to the game? Farmers most definitely do not have anything incredibly easy and hassle free. Sure, if you can escape well enough, you'll live, but that's still a hassle. They aren't left unchecked (as often, anymore) and every time you choose to disrupt their game play in any way, they are being hassled. Please explain to me how people in IRC talking about getting PKed and having to restock is not a direct result of them getting hassled? I get that you feel you should be patted on the back for shitting on people's game play. Most here do appreciate the thrill of having PKs come around to mess with them because it keeps the game exciting. If I ONLY played a tamer and you pulled that shit, I would be super excited.....to quit and go play somewhere that doesn't add functions which only really suit being a total prick and ruining an entire day of game time. Most folks here have actual lives and having that happen, once, twice, or several times over the course of however long, is the perfect thing to ensure reduction in population. gg
Stating repeatedly that there is absolutely no other aspects to this possible change, other than grief, does not make it true. You sound like a broken record repeating the same complaint over and over, without actually negating any of the valid points brought up by others.
Yes, I understand there were a few minor 'positives', but most were RP related and I don't see them as worthy enough to enable something that is primarily suited to shitting on people's game. Sure, it would be great if it could be adjusted to a point where maybe only bonded pets could be gated or something, but otherwise, just another grief mechanic that would be a net loss to the quality of the shard. Also, I don't see where I specifically claimed there were no other aspects to the possible change. Just that I didn't mention them because they are overshadowed by the real reasons people want this change. To accommodate higher levels of grief tactics because people in a dungeon somewhere are such a burden to PvPers everywhere.
Simply put, I, and others, disagree with that position. I also think that just handwaving away the potentially significant gold sink of pet summoning charges is naive -- this has potential to be a really good source of gold outflow, especially over time as the average number of bonding slots for tamers increases. We need more gold sinks beyond vanity items; this much has become clear -- this seems like a perfect source of tying output to effort from a sink perspective, to me.
Thats just it; straight grief isn't why this topic was brought up. It was just automatically latched on as the scapegoat direction to take it. You choose to see the grief aspect as the biggest key here; others disagree. I don't know how else to underline what has been stated by everyone pro-this so far, that its not about grief. Insisting that it is, doesn't make it truth. I of course am not denying the potential for grief, but again I just feel its naive to brush away a change that has rooted accuracy, because you only see that aspect of it.
Like I said, make it so that you can only gate bonded pets and it's a win/win. Jupiter gets his RP, if the thief bonded his horse, and PKs can sap gold from the veteran tamers able to bond more than a single tame. If there are checks and balances, sure thing, sounds great. If there's a loophole that can effectively disable a person's character for an entire day, on a whim, that's just plain terrible. The reason it was latched on to as a grief mechanic is not only because that is what it has and always was primarily used for, but because the OP is actually very well known for such things (naming PKs after other players as an example, while within the rules, is suited only to grief). I personally have never seen any instance where pet gating was done for any positive reason. Not saying it's unpossibru, just that I had never seen anything remotely considered positive about the mechanic when I played where it did work. People like to throw the 'you don't see what I see' card pretty much every time I don't agree. It's not that I don't see the potential for a small amount of fun in such a mechanic, it's that I don't see it as worth the trouble that is inevitable if it is enabled. I don't mean trouble for me either. I have gold, I have bond slots, I can summon away. A new tamer who's only character is that tamer, would be the greatest victim here and unjustly so.
On the subject of Liberation -- this topic was directly discussed between him and myself before he posted this thread. The conversation was very intentionally driven away from the grief possibilities, and I suggested he open the thread here for further discussion -- for civil discourse without presumption. Unfortunately, as you have all seen in this thread, that didn't exactly happen. I guess its my fault for thinking that when it comes to idea discussion for a shard we all love, that we can set aside personal differences, because that CLEARLY didn't happen in this thread. On the subject of the tamers -- I'm very firm in the belief that the risk of being shut down for a day is not only acceptable, but the way it SHOULD be in a Feluccan world. If your entire day is vested in a single character, you're already doing it wrong -- and if someone gating out your pets leaves you with absolutely zero options, its as much your fault as the person who gated out your pets imo. I'm all for getting people into the game, and helping out your fellow Sosarian to get stable -- but I also think that once the training wheels are off, they should be completely gone. The lack of risk around farming here, to me, is one of the bigger problems we have running on the shard -- and to me, this would be a step in the right direction.
I'm sorry, are we not playing an RPG? Are people not permitted to play only one character and expect they can continue play, after recovery from the trials of a Feluccan world? How can you possibly mandate that players just go play another character because one person opted to shut them down for 24 hours by way of this mechanic? By asking for ways to turn people off for 24 hours, you sir, are doing it wrong. The community should be engaging in keeping the community engaged, not turning them away because they think it's funny. For what its worth, personal differences with the historically griefing OP have very little to do with my understanding of this mechanic or my opinion of what will come of enabling it. I personally experienced this, as you did, on a shard he didn't even play on. The ability to shut anyone down on a whim, for 24 hours, is absolutely bullshit. Yes, throw a wrench because that is the Feluccan way, but everything should have a balance, which is where the suggestion for only gating bonded pets comes in. These aren't people AFK in their houses, these are people out there playing the game and basically you want the ability to stop them from playing. The argument of 'just go play another character' is out of line because it is ridiculous to assume that everyone has or wants to play multiple characters. Sure it is common and very likely that they can, but forcing it isn't Feluccan, it is just plain wrong.
Allow me to clarify. If that completely shuts down your gameplay -- regardless of extra character slots (note that I never actually said go play another character, that was presumption on your part) -- then your view of what is possible in the game world is narrow, and you're doing it wrong. Losing a couple pets shouldn't set you back 24 hours, even if they aren't bonded.
If you are a tamer and your source of income is hunting monsters with your tames, and someone takes them and traps them out of your reach, you are effectively decommissioned for the entire duration until those tames go wild. What is possible on a tamer is pretty damn slim, especially if they actually had all 8 slots out, if they couldn't even get a horse and go kill things with spells. Are you suggesting that instead of carrying on the game, I should go do something my character isn't built to do? All I'm saying is that without a balance, the mechanic is out of place here and suits nothing positive that is appropriately balancing out the negative. If you could only gate bonded pets, or if you could gate all tames and they go wild faster after being out of X range from their owner, that is called balance. That hurts, like a good Feluccan world should provide, but does not just decommission an entire character for a day. How about if I kill your fisherman and take his fishing pole he can't fish for a day. Perhaps we should bind weapons and armor to people so when PKs loot them, they can't re-equip immediately and have to go knit a friggen sweater while they wait. The ability to pick yourself up, dust off and get back to playing the game how you want to play, should not be forced upon innocent players. Make it costly, make it painful and even make it take some time. An entire day? No thanks, ever.
My tamer is also a bard. No reason I can't go work dungeons that way. Others do tamers with Mage 4 or Mage 5 -- they wouldn't be defenseless and could still hunt all day long on mid-range mobs. They can also, you know -- plot revenge, or try to get the pets back. Acting like that character is now 100% useless is overarching, and you know it. If you think its that big of a problem -- what about the compromise of the ability to abandon pets remotely?
So you'd go do that on foot? If I could abandon pets remotely, the point is moot. Gate away Captain Griefnugget. Like I said, balance, or compromise, however you want to word it. Disable gating unbonded pets, expedite tames going wild out of range or allow tamers to abandon remotely. Any of those will allow me to dust off, equip my character and go put myself in a position to get killed again.
Sure, if I was that committed to the character -- especially in a RP setting. That gives the story a drive. Personally, I'm all for the abandon ability, even if we don't get pet gating. Would save plenty of newbies frustration when they don't realize that control slots exist here, and have no idea where they abandoned tames on their path.
I cannot confirm or deny how many times I've had to go track down my ostard after dying 800 times at a treasure hunt on Larry. Just adding a tab to the [profile gump to show what pets are out there and allow selection of which to abandon, would suit just fine. However, one must also consider the regrief potential there of intentionally abandoning remotely in order to crap in someone else's pool.
2 minute delay for potential crim flagging. Abandoning a pet that causes a criminal act will flag you as well. Aggressor included.
The idea that losing two dragons and being out of comission for 24 hours is rubbish and you know it. Any tamer that relies solely on their two dragons/WW's should not even call themselves a tamer... When I started my tamer I went to numerous events, PvP areas and even farmed without having two big dragons to guard me. Just because you can't farm 60k/hr anymore doesn't mean you are "shut down". I attended the haunted house/red lich event back in 2012 with only one mare and with the help of one other player (Who did not use two dragons) was able to kill the Lich, if that thing can die without dragons; anything can. I have no plans on doing the taming quest any time soon, although it would be a great experience, if this change did go in and I lost 2 dragons I definitely would not consider myself "shut down". As someone who doesn't PK frequently and spends more time PvMing/helping players; this change would effect me greatly, but I think it would add a lot more to the difficulty of playing a tamer, as it stands right now tamers are the pinnacle of PvP/PvM, giving them a "weak spot" or something along those lines in my mind is a great addition. I know you don't want this change put in but at least try to make some constructive arguments, I understand the griefing potential is huge - but we are playing in fel, if I wanted to be 100% safe I would have played a shard with trammel; the risk is what makes the reward all the more worthwhile. I'm not looking for a long winded argument here, I've been reading the forums/IRC long enough to know any argument with you ends up in a mud slinging contest which you are inevitably going to win, so this will be my final response.
If you just logged in, had a few hours to play that day and it was the only chance you got to play that week, and someone gated your pets (all 8 slots worth) to their house and trapped them out of your reach, you'd be totally stoked to sit on your thumbs and do jack shit, I'm sure. Oh, but wait, I'm sure there will be an instanced event that day where a tamer on foot with no ability to summon anything or even get on a damn horse, will just have a dandy old time. (edit: Tell us again how many summoned daemons were used in those events and perchance how many control slots they consumed) I have made several constructive arguments that include balancing suggestions, not just "I hate bad dudes, so no". Please read what I write before just getting mad that I don't just jump on board shitty ideas with no balance included. I'm not slinging mud, I'm making absolutely valid arguments against a shitty mechanic that suits shitty actions MORE THAN any other. If you want to be a prick, I support that, but I deserve the ability to counter that in less than 24 hours, if we wish to continue calling this History Perfected.
What if the only way to get a pet through a gate is to herd it with GM herding, AND herding a blue creature flags you grey AND has a chance to aggro the pet? "The dragon is infuriated by your feeble attempt to direct it." You wanna herd somebody's pet? go for it, but you can be attacked by them. PK's want to have their herding alt on standby? Or make it a triple combo mechanic, GM Taming, GM Animal Lore, GM Herding to herd through a gate? I dunno, I tend to disagree with Blaise just out of principle of my disagreement with absolute assumptions that everyone who does this wants to be a jerk. This is a viable tactic, if you are fighting against tamers, to remove their weapon. And as other's have stated the assumption that your day is completely wasted if two tames are stolen is grasping. If you have the time to make a GM tamer, you have more than 1-2 hours a day to log in to play. SO much to do here! Jupe out *jumps out of conversation before Blaise Kal Vas Cinderates him*
While I really do like the idea of it requiring herding, considering Enticement is not in place here, I have to point out, again, the errors here. I have not ever meant to imply that there is absolutely no other purposes served aside from being a jerk. It is just the vast majority of the applications that we absolutely would see. I assure you, 'impounding' a thief's horse is a noble action to say the least. However, it is negligible in comparison to the larger picture how how much terrible play will result from this inclusion, without any balancing mechanism. We're not talking two tames here either, we're talking about all 8 control slots (when you die, your mare wanders too). You should know as well as anyone, that even someone with only a couple hours to play can still build a tamer for such play time. To permit others to quite literally lock up every control slot they have for 24 hours, is completely asinine. That player/character can then no longer ride a horse, summon a blade spirit or even a rabbit, to suit their play style. Nothing says "Just go play somewhere else" like being shut down for an entire day because a player or players decided to do that to you. All I'm saying is provide a balancing mechanism to suit both sides and there won't be any real issue. Allow a player to remotely abandon tames or literally any solid check that can let someone go pay the price to get back into the game sooner than 24 hours later, just for being a victim.
