Capture the Flag Discussion Thread

I am proposing this idealistically without a clue as to how much coding/resources is involved from staff to make it possible.

The first issue I want to address is the randomization VS pre-made teams. I don't want to argue for or against either position. Lets assume they are both viable options and try to accommodate both. What if there were two back to back games? Make the first one fully randomized team selection. Second one can be as it is today. If people want to sign up and play in that one, they have the option. As teams or solo. If there isn't enough support for it from solo people the game probably can't happen but by the same token if those who prefer to play as teams won't play in the randomized game, then that game probably won't happen. If the attendance in either game is low it will reflect in the quality of the game. But at this point the mechanics would allow for both and the players can decide what they want to do without holding the staff/mechanics responsible for the quality of their experience.

The second issue would be the multiple account participation issue and the problems that go with it. I would recommend a zero tolerance 1 use per IP enforcement to simplify things. It was enforced during the Halloween event. If the staff want to go through the trouble of vetting those who have multi users and allowing them specific access for multiple accounts, then that can be an option. But if it is either multiple accounts per ip for everyone vs single for everyone, I would go with single.

The last comment I would like to make is regarding rewards. It is my opinion that rewards for these events is what creates that sense of entitlement among the players. If the reward was to just participate, people would concentrate more on getting better and having a better time as opposed to what parts of the mechanics are unfair to their play style and things like that. If there is going to be 0 risk PvP, it should be 0 rewards also.

Always has to resort to this crap because a civil debate just is not gonna ever happen I guess..

Agree.

Agree.

Disagree: All aspects of the game need to have some sort of reward, even if the risk is low to none. Take for example any of the holiday events that go through the event lobby. Would you take part in any of those events if when you killed the boss there was an empty corpse? Hey, it's fun right? You get to spend all that time in the event, with no risk, but at the end you have nothing to show for it. People have made millions upon millions in the Trammel events since the start of them here. We're "making" a handful of plat a night. There is no sense of entitlement, just a sense of trying to protect what we are enjoying right now.

The rewards were put into place to attract more people into CTF. That was accomplished. I'm not saying taking them away will drop attendance but I don't see it helping. Taking away rewards won't stop people from teaming up. Leave the rewards in team CTF and take it away from randomized games.

Civility is for @%^^!#%s, bro.


I do agree mostly with Halabinder, aside from the reward aspect. This shard has rewards just for being logged in. Why is it such a hard pill to swallow to reward everyone who plays CTF and give a tip to the high scorers?

That way, no one has to be butthurt about coming away with nothing everyone can just focus on playing the best they can for fun. That said, I will reiterate because it gets ignored, I will continue to CTF with or without reward or team selection.

there's not really a question in my mind what the players want, it was voted on back in september

Yes, clearly what the players want, can be determined with a forum poll with fewer than 40 people taking part.


As was stated back when the poll hit, Telamon put tons of hours into coding the team gump.

As has been stated since then, yes, randomization is on the table and even most recently has been stated to be geared towards a voting system IN-GAME.


We'll see what the players want, when they can vote while they're playing, I would wager.

Research shows that people report lower joy/satisfaction with tasks when they expect and receive a reward for completing them. It's counter-intuitive but it's true.

People would enjoy events a lot more if there wasn't such an outlandish reward tied to them. The CTF rewards are pretty modest, which is nice, but still warps satisfaction a bit.

How many people participate in CTF each week - would you say it's more or less than 40?

I know research is amazing and whatnot, but unless you can show me 100% results for people being less pleased with rewards for tasks than otherwise, I'm going to disagree with that tidbit.

People have enjoyed these events here, long before there were any rewards. They still do right now, whether they get rewarded or not. So saying they "would" enjoy them more, is a bold assumption. I can say from witnessing it myself, people have been more interested, and reporting more fun, in CTF, since rewards got added. I still think a single bare plat piece per player, that actually plays, would be a boon to the shard because everyone gets a piece of the pie and people who work harder at it, can get a slightly bigger piece. None of which are outlandish or even remotely excessive in the scope of the shard.


As for the quoted bit, I can't rightly say as I haven't been in many CTFs recently. I know we've seen a few that were like ~30 at one time so over the course of a week, sure. I'd be confident in guessing its more than forty. I would also be confident in guessing that a big portion of those voters don't play CTF regularly and have very little experience with it. It was a closed poll though, so the world will never know.

I agree with ^ and will leave it at that.

I was actually going to suggest leaving the rewards in the Team section. I think it will ultimately create a situation with one big team who will show up every time and have no one showing up to fight them. The comparison of an every night on going event with a 2 week holiday event is unreasonable so I won't get into it. What you say above however is an entitled statement. You get a maximum of 10 Plat for an entire month of game play at the end of the month and you are telling me a handful of plat for a 15 minute game is not a bit much? When you say in the above sentence that you are trying to protect what you are enjoying, are you referring to the actual CTF game or the platinum rewards of it?

Cynic has been quite open that he plays harder because of the reward but would not stop playing if it were removed.
Basically the game can be fun either way but if you want to see the best people can bring, there would need to be a motivating factor for it. That said, I don't think 4p trophies are appropriate and a single plat for all players with 2p trophies for top scorers, would be much better suited.

Also, yes, on the split of the games. Full random teams should be GM items only, no rewards.
Team selection should be for team players and have rewards for teamwork that is above and beyond the rest.


While a single team may dominate, there is literally nothing stopping anyone from doing the same. Unlike Factions or warring guilds, you simply can't get a larger team for certain every time. You may get lucky but for the most part, you will only really need a handful of folks you can coordinate with in order to compete. We threw together a group the other night and did pretty damn good against the dominant team, and we were a damn mess. If we got tighter with our comms, we'd have either won or come damn close(r).


Assuming people would enjoy CTF more without the reward is subjective and unsubstantiated. Some, perhaps, but not even remotely all.

I don't feel entitled to either plat or CTF. I enjoy playing CTF and I enjoy the rewards from attending CTF. I feel entitled to my 30 plat when I log 500 afk hours every month.

You get 30 plat a month for doing absolutely nothing. Nada.

I get 1 or 4 plat for showing up at a scheduled time each night, with my team, and fighting another 1-3 teams for 30+ minutes. Sometimes it's easy and sometimes it's not.

The point of the statues is to reward players for excelling in each critical area of CTF. You can't just grab a dagger and carelessly play CTF and reap any rewards. You actually have to work and at times work pretty hard. Even the losing teams get statues, but only the people who contributed get the statues.

You assume that removal of rewards and adding random team matches will solve CTF woes. You suggest team match CTFs will be empty. I suggest that with random teams you're going to see the exact same thing you see now, maybe 5 guys playing CTF as was intended and 20 people running around the middle of the map in a FFA.

I played before rewards, I played with and without teams. Teams existed before rewards too! My attitude then was this: CTF was something I would do out of extreme boredom. It provided me with less interest than manual mining. I had no interest in joining with a bunch of randoms and pvping in an uncoordinated fashion. Rewards peaked my interest, they motivated me to partner up with others that held the same interests that I do.

I don't understand what your bigger concern is, the rewards or the teaming?

Teaming: The only difference is that we're in voice.
Rewards: Available to anyone who contributes to winning or attempting to win a match.

Let me be clear about one thing as I am feeling like I am getting cornered into a position that isn't my choosing - I do not believe people will ENJOY the game more if it is random teams or if there are no rewards for the games. I believe people will not be in a position to complain that the mechanics are screwing them. That is all.

@Cynic - I am sorry for getting you riled up. The point I am trying to make is simple. If you weren't getting 4 plat for kicking people's asses they wouldn't complain about it. They would lick their wounds and try to get better. They would try to form alliances and make teams and try harder. Now they complain about the mechanics and feel like they are never going to reach that 4 platinum reward because you MUST be cheating. I clearly stated from the start I had no intention of saying Team or Randomized sign ups were better and wanted to accept the merits of both. I envision a no reward random sign up league and a minimal reward team sign up league as the way to go. My aim was only to address Chris' original post and try to provide some options for future consideration regarding CTF events.

You're not getting me riled in the least. I like having a civil debate on things like this and I welcome all input whether it supports my thoughts or not. I'm not trying to attack you either.

I see your point. I don't particularly agree with it but I understand it. The rewards are what motivated me in finding a team, I was tired of getting my butt kicked and getting nowhere. I wanted that trophy, I wanted to win, so I aligned with people that had similar interests as mine and there's the team.

The whole cheating accusations arose from when we were suspected of working with an enemy team. I think I dispelled that theory with a number of screenshots and many CTF games that have followed since those accusations.

I really feel the only time there really is issue with the way CTF is currently run is when there is a huge blowout. I don't see any complaints when the matches are close or when team Pax and co. lose.

^Lets agree to partially disagree on the third point regarding rewards. Glad we agreed on the first two and were able to keep it civil

EDIT: @Blaise - Yo

Any ideas who the two would be?..............

Eh, yeah, you've convinced me. No damaging teammates at all. I don't really like the idea, but, having pictured the outcomes, I dislike it less than the alternatives that have been given thus far. I agree that removing purples completely is a horrible idea. It is hard enough to kill carriers as it is.

I honestly didn't see purples as even remotely as big an issue as people not playing the fucking game.

CTF is simple:
Get flag
Kill flag carriers <--- THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART
Deliver flag

If you're not doing at least one of these things, or trying your best to do them, you're fucking up the whole game. Don't sign up next time if you're not actually doing these things because you're a burden and you clearly don't understand how to play the game.

Work hard, work well with others, get rewarded. This is how the game works and if you can literally sit on your ass and pull 30p a month, pulling 4p from a game you actually played hard to get that reward in, is not even remotely damaging. If that discourages others, then they need a real lesson in determination and coordination.

on the contrary 40 votes is rather large.

if someone put out a survey of which is better PAM or Cisco brand non stick skillet spray I wouldn't take it cuz i don't give a crap.

this is 40 people who actually care about the direction.

factor in the 400 daily players divided by three to accommodate for their afk platinum farmers and that means over a third of the active player base is voicing their opinion.

If we're factoring like that, let's not forget to factor out the half a dozen or so SL who don't CTF who voted on that

Factor it in, dipshit. It still means you and bart were the only two people that voted premade teams out of 30 people.