A Lesson in Fake News - How to Loot a Patio (Staff Statement)

Discussion in 'Renaissance Discussion' started by Chris, Sep 12, 2019 at 11:36 AM.

  1. Chris

    Chris Renaissance Staff
    Renaissance Staff

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    Recently the staff has been forced to waste a significant amount of time dealing with the spreading drama of "patio looting". There has been an extensive amount of bad information passing around lately about looting items from patio houses. Initially we discounted it because the servers rules were correct and things, from the server side, were working as expected.

    There are 3 commonly used clients for Ultima Online Servers.
    The 5.0.8.3 Client (we default to this)
    The 7.x Client (Most other servers use this)
    The Classic Client (An open source replacement for the 5.x and 7.x clients.​

    All of them work on, and are acceptable to use on UO Renaissance. The 7.x client is not used here very much because in the life of UO several core things were changed with the world maps. Notably Fire Island, Magincia, Ocllo, and other smaller places. So you can use it here, but head to any of those locations and the server will be in conflict with your local map resulting in getting stuck/ rubber banding/etc. The Classic client supports the maps from both 5.x and 7.x client installations and does not have this issue.

    So recently some players discovered that you could do something with the Classic client that the 5.x client could not. Specifically when reaching into patio houses. This spread like wildwife between chat/voice channels with very few people actually testing.

    This is just a short example of the wild PM's I received over the last 48 hours. Demands to ban the classic client as a cheat client, demands that players be punished for doing this, claims that new players will be disadvantaged from being able to play fair etc.

    Now lets go back here a bit and take a look at the official UO Renaissance home ownership guide. Specifically two sections.

    2B. Small House Home Security
    This section covers safety regarding storing items behind a table wall.

    2C. Medium House Home Security
    And more specifically the section on medium house security.

    Large Patios
    LargePatioGuide.jpg

    The important part

    Marble Patios
    MarblePatioGuide.jpg
    The important part

    So for years, in the house guide attached to every house on the server there have been warnings that items in patio houses are not safe on the edge of the patio. But wait, you say that items are safe because you cannot access them using our client? When we started UO Renaissance we knew there were other clients with slightly different behaviors. And I will cover why those are in the guide below and why this whole situation is frustrating.

    So lets look at the claims players are making.
    - The restock agent can somehow allow you more access to items on a patio.
    - You can access items 1 tile inside the patio from outside the house.
    - You can access items 2 tiles inside the patio from outside the house.
    - The classic client allows cheating or unfair advantages.

    Lets look at some videos. Below are 3 videos of the same actions with 3 different clients performing the same actions. Notice something interesting?

    Classic Patio - The UO Renaissance 5.x Client
    LPatio 5.x Client Example.gif

    Classic Patio - 7.x OSI Client
    LPatio 7.x Client Example.gif

    Classic Patio - Classic Client
    LPatio Classic Test.gif

    Now lets look at the same tests run in a Marble Patio. A bit different as the 5.x client can access items 4z and above. But again you'll notice something interesting,.

    Classic Patio - The UO Renaissance 5.x Client
    MPatio 5.x Client.gif

    Classic Patio - 7.x OSI Client
    MPatio 7.x Client.gif

    Classic Patio - Classic Client
    MPatio Classic Client.gif

    You should have noticed that there is no difference between how the 7.x client (released by OSI) and the Classic Client (Volunteer Developed). While the 5.x client denies you access to items in a large patio below 7z and in a marble patio below 3z. The newer clients do not have this . . we can call it a bug I guess.

    Note: Z axis is the 3 dimensional representation of items in the UO world. The world itself is extends from -128 z (below sea level) and 128z (top of the sky). A player character is 16z. Floors in houses are 20z.

    So the moral of the story? Lets revisit the player claims.
    - The restock agent can somehow allow you more access to items on a patio.
    (The Restock Agent has zero impact on anything, it passes the same lift action to the server)

    - You can access items 1 tile inside the patio from outside the house.
    (Correct, with the only caveat being limitations of the 5.x client as mentioned above)

    - You can access items 2 tiles inside the patio from outside the house.
    (I suspect someone with gm powers on test center did not realize GM's can access items from 3 tiles away)

    - The classic client allows cheating or unfair advantages.
    (The classic client has some features that set it above current OSI clients, but in this case it offers no unfair advantage. It simply does something the 7.x client has done since the server opened.

    So in closing, why was this such an issue? Because no one initially approached the staff with the concern or checked the home ownership guide (accessible from every house on the server). An assumption was made, it spread getting more and more inaccurate over time. And it played on the bias' of certain players who have already set opinions of the classic client and some people involved with it. Fearmongering on discord travels at the speed of light, while the truth moves very slow and takes our beleaguered staff 2 days and 4 hours of missed IRL work to address.

    Patio houses were never meant to be bastions of items security in the way some players might expect. If you can drop something over a wall, it is best to assume that someone can find a way to pick that something up. No one can make a client that can override the servers rules of access to magically allow house looting.

    The next time you wonder why patches are always delayed around here. Situations like this is why.

    Side Note: There are currently 98 large patios on the server and 33 marble patios. Out of 2,600 total houses.
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019 at 1:39 PM
  2. Chris

    Chris Renaissance Staff
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    A small note. Several volunteers are hard at work developing the Renaissance approved Classic Client Installers/Instructions for Mac/PC and Linux systems. It should be more accessible to all player soon should you have any further concerns.
  3. PaddyOBrien

    PaddyOBrien Well-Known Member

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    Welp, there goes cub!
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  4. Kiryana

    Kiryana Well-Known Member

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  5. LanDarr

    LanDarr Well-Known Member
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  6. Kiryana

    Kiryana Well-Known Member

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    I don’t give a damn, this image does not make sense not of a technical nature, but calls for being more careful and attentive against the background of a beautiful picture.

    Chief wrote everything as always intelligibly ;)
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  7. Xavant_BR

    Xavant_BR Well-Known Member

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    If this classic mac client come up i will find a way to play at least with one toon, without razor(until something similar could be developed in a long term)
    I know, Uo players are a very small public, UO mac users are a even smaller group... But talking about uo scene, mac client was the main reason that brought me to the shard.

    Is not much people that could make it worth so much work.. but who knows in the future... uo could become a trend by accident in the future... and is good to be ready to absorve a future market need. For sure UO classic will make the game even more attractive and could change the Uo relevance in the gaming world.

    In any case, a mac client patch with the new quicks razor will gona be good too. (even better if runs on this shity system apple made, called mojave)
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  8. Chris

    Chris Renaissance Staff
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    Its in the works thanks to some player volunteers.
    Ubo and OptimisticSam like this.
  9. TrojanCow

    TrojanCow Well-Known Member
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    He's literally said "if not for you pesky kids" for four years. When will we all learn to behave so we can have patches?

    WHHHHEEENNNNN?
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  10. PaddyOBrien

    PaddyOBrien Well-Known Member

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    Right! Cub would have came out "this weekend" , but now the forecast is pushed back to 2032. Good job aholes!!:p
    Hoominaga, Crisco-Pjoe and Earsnot like this.
  11. Larloch

    Larloch Well-Known Member

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    2032, you make me laugh.
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  12. Earsnot

    Earsnot Well-Known Member
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    I’ve read this several times now and still don’t quite understand. Some people were using a specific client that allowed them the ability/access to move items that people NOT using that specific client couldn’t?

    And then abused instead of reporting?

    Was this a bug/exploit or not?

    Simply looking for clarification, not drama.
  13. eherruh

    eherruh Well-Known Member
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    It's a bug of the 5.x Client that I think people just assumed was one of the idiosyncrasies of the game.

    Experiencing how it should work in the newer clients is a lot like realizing you've been colorblind the whole time.
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  14. Earsnot

    Earsnot Well-Known Member
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    Thank you @eherruh !

    Appreciate it!
  15. WarrenBuffet

    WarrenBuffet Well-Known Member
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    It is neither a bug nor an exploit. The server allows players to interact with 1 tile into a patio. On older clients this feature is blocked when it comes to drag. Since someone took the time to do an updated client and since the server allows for this action, it is possible to drag items from a patio railing 1 tile in. The same as scavenging or restocking has been for years.
    gitchu1000 and Earsnot like this.
  16. SativaGreen

    SativaGreen Well-Known Member

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    upload_2019-9-13_16-27-39.png
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  17. SativaGreen

    SativaGreen Well-Known Member

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    I've personally been taking stuff off people's patios but without the knowledge that the other client restricted this. Other than that, any other odd advantages I've noticed I do report.
    Kiryana likes this.
  18. Pharoah

    Pharoah Well-Known Member

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    Think i will wait on it if at all download it. Oh and i'll make sure i don't own a Patio style house now lol, Darned Brigands of the Patios!
    Kiryana likes this.
  19. Dalavar

    Dalavar Well-Known Member
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    This is my new favorite phrase.
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