Explosion Potions

Discussion in 'Renaissance Discussion' started by Tater Salad, Jul 18, 2013.

  1. Tater Salad

    Tater Salad New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2012
    Messages:
    312
    Likes Received:
    10
    Has anyone figured out how to throw these since the nerf? Usually i just wait half a second after the 1 to throw but that's proving unreliable.

    Are we just writing them off like wands as don't even bother or is there a method.
  2. bart simpson

    bart simpson Well-Known Member
    UO:R Subscriber

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,638
    Likes Received:
    1,297
    I have not found a consistent reliable method to throw them yet since the patch. I do not understand what was wrong with them in the first place, to warrant a change? Can anyone clarify why purple potions were changed?
  3. Zyler

    Zyler Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2012
    Messages:
    3,045
    Likes Received:
    2,698
    Even tho I don't PvP, Im wondering why too
  4. Chris

    Chris Renaissance Staff
    Renaissance Staff

    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Messages:
    3,071
    Likes Received:
    4,488
    [youtube]RaB6o5Q9S9k[/youtube]

    I ran a quick test this morning, tossed 16 potions at a high speed moving target and I was able to hit 8 times, missed 5, and hit myself 3 times. (See Linked Video)

    Before the minor adjustments in the last 2 patches several players were able to demonstrate a razor macro which would hit a moving target 100% of the time.

    In certain situations this was being abused, mostly due to an error on our part. When we added the ability to hit a target on the run, we lowered the transit delay for purple potions to much. In RunUO by default there is a 1 second delay from when you toss the potion to when it explodes. If it explodes in transit, it hits you, if it doesn't it explodes at the location thrown. This made it impossible to hit anything but a stationary target at the time. While we wanted to enable hit on the run, purple potions are volatile and should not be able to be thrown with near 100% accuracy against a moving target.

    With the current mechanics you won't be able to hit a moving target 100% of the time, however 50% or greater accuracy should easily be obtained through proper timing.

    Also as we indicated in the patch notes we are still reviewing the changes to make sure we find the correct balance and skill based use when it comes to explosion potions.

  5. Tater Salad

    Tater Salad New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2012
    Messages:
    312
    Likes Received:
    10
    It's not called being abused it's called throwing explode pots, if you use a macro it's too bad because you can then not use another macro or risk blowing yourself up. It's not an exploit or an error in code its how you throw purple pots.

    FYI changing everything to 50% success rate is not balancing pvp its just making people not want to play.

    PVP is based on timing, execution and how you react to the other persons offense/defense. If it's going to be a coin toss every time I swing a weapon or try to use a purple pot we can all just bank sit and roll dice.

    I'm not trying to be a jerk, or say you have to do this or change this. I'm just speaking from my experience and opinions and the things people are telling me. I have been pvping in UO for a long time, also in RUNUO pvp, and the things happening here are frustrating to say the least. It's come to a point where it's not even fun anymore, people go out, try to play realize the mechanics, get frustrated and log off.

    I can say personally after playing a server for 3 years with an accurate timed explosion potion it was not an exploit or bad code, it was part of the game.
  6. Blaise

    Blaise Well-Known Member
    UO:R Subscriber

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2012
    Messages:
    7,696
    Likes Received:
    3,587
    Accurate timed to what? What the developers of that shard thought were best?

    I used purple potions a couple nights ago and it worked fine. Clicked potion, waited, clicked target, boom, it exploded.

    If you want the ability to juggle an explosion potion, put it on the side while you cast two other spells, then pick up the highly volatile potion and target it, I guess this may not be the shard for you. That's exploitative bullshit, in my rarely humble opinion. There's no logical reason why one should be able to use an explosion potion, put it on hold, use both hands to cast spells, then target the potion after already cancelling the target. It's a bummer that you got so used to terribly illogical mechanics that you insist upon them everywhere. Perhaps with the years of experience in PvP you can learn to adapt instead of be upset that OP function you got used to, don't exist.

    If you have a hotkey for use explosion potion, that won't interrupt a cycling macro of another function as far as I'm aware. The only time you'd have that issue is if you have a full macro built for tossing them including pause, in lieu of just a hotkey that you have to manually time your targetting for.

    All in favor of CHANCES for success, not %100 every time you do something, say HAHAHAHAHAH DELAY. The fact that everything else is chance based, depending on the variables, makes it completely logical to have explosion potions function as indicated presently.


    But hey, what do I know...
  7. Tater Salad

    Tater Salad New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2012
    Messages:
    312
    Likes Received:
    10
    "Accurate timed" as in you know when its going to blow up.

    And you can not claim logistics while saying explosion potion and cast spell. Either of those are illogical.

    And thanks for trolling yet another post with nothing helpful.
  8. Blaise

    Blaise Well-Known Member
    UO:R Subscriber

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2012
    Messages:
    7,696
    Likes Received:
    3,587
    Logistics have nothing at to do with this, unless you're talking about how the potion gets from you, to your target. In which case I suppose you have a problem with logistics.

    Assuming magic is a logical function in this fantasy world, wherein we all know you need your hands free to cast a spell because historically all spell casters use their hands to cast, in the vast majority of games/fantasy lore.
    If you want to equate it to RL function, let's see how well you do cooking a live grenade whilst also accurately firing your assault rifle, without blowing yourself up.

    As I said, I know when they're going to blow up, I click my target when I see the 1 and most of the time it hits. If I want to be a bit safer, I target shortly after the 2, ensuring that I never get hit, but giving my target a bit larger of a window to dodge.
    All of that seems appropriate to me and I'm not really sure why it should function any other way, other than to suit your desire to stack multiple functions by way of Razor or other, in order to get a %100 drop on someone.
    I can't 'accurately time' my concussion blows or even a hit that does good damage with my LJ, so why should you be able to dial in exposion potions and spells for %100 success every time?

    Call it trolling all you want, it's just the excuse people make for not being able to carry on a conversation without insult, even when they're unable to formulate an argument.
  9. Mes

    Mes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,402
    Likes Received:
    2,938
    I've come to feel like I just have a different view of what UO pvp is to other people - and I should have prefaced that by saying that I have not played UOSA or any other player shard. The only experience I have is from OSI servers from like T2A through Samurai bullshit. You can't say 5x duel on this server without people foaming at the mouth and tearing their clothes in agony, which is totally bizarre to me because I thought this stuff was standard.

    I never experienced players that relied so heavily on just wands and purple pots. They show up to a fight, equip a weapon and just throw purple pots, then hit a gheal wand macro if they get dumped on. Once the gheal charges are out or the purple pots are gone it's time to exit the fight and get some more (or farm some up). It's that asian style of item based pvp. Your mana is no longer really relevant, you're just managing an inventory. I'm not a huge fan of it. Shouldn't surviving a fight be more about your spell timing or bandage timing (or ability to run) than how many charges are left on your wand?

    I always carried a few purple that I'd throw on hiding people, but I was getting annoyed with how I had to manage my mana, but people I was fighting were just throwing purple pots via a macro over and over and didn't really have to worry about it. We found that with a super simple macro, made in just moments we could toss purple pots that hit every time as long as the player was on screen and it wouldn't be interrupted by casting. So I could cast exp mb and land a purple pot at the same time, more than reliably. Against a stunned opponent this was just silly. It was a consistent 80+ damage combo that shit on people as long as i had pots. It reminded me of that elf expansion that had spellweaving and I could one shot people with word of death.

    Seems to me that purple pot damage should be more in line with the healing over time from gheal pots, instead of atleast twice that. I'm also not used to people hitting while running so much. Why is it that archers must stop moving for a moment to land a hit? Well some developer decided it would be a little op for them to machine gun while running at all times, since melee players must close the distance and casters must stop to cast. So it makes sense to me for explosion pots and wands to not be such a staple of pvp, or atleast not the majority of your damage. I would think they'd best be used as a supplement and not something you can't play without.

    Anyways, I'm pretty certain the admins have been making it clear that they aren't done testing them. If it's changed such that I can just throw them on the run, it's just going to benefit me.
  10. Chris

    Chris Renaissance Staff
    Renaissance Staff

    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Messages:
    3,071
    Likes Received:
    4,488
    It would help if you clarify the exact situation in which this is not working for you after patch 41. Exhaustive testing was undertaken after the last patch to further refine the changes to accomplish our goals and resolve the concerns you raised regarding the potions use a pvp setting when combined with a spell combo. Most of the randomization was removed in order to make that possible.

    The 50% metric was simply based on my quick test from this morning. With my complete lack of experience targeting explosion potions. If I can hit 50% of the time without much difficulty then players should be able to exceed that in the field with practice.

    This was simply the staff realizing that we had mistake a mistake with a patch months ago, and correcting that mistake to achieve proper balance.

    To clarify, before patch 40, all it took to hit a player 100% of the time, full run on a horse, with an explosion potion was a razor macro with 4 lines.
    • Use Explosion Potion
    • Wait for Target
    • Delay 3600ms
    • Last Target
  11. Tater Salad

    Tater Salad New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2012
    Messages:
    312
    Likes Received:
    10
    I guess I just don't see a problem with that macro. And with it hitting with 100% success. I've been on both ends of the coin and sure its not fun to get hit but it happens. Imagine running from 3 people with alchemy bonus explosion potions and full strength lightning wands while you are out by yourself, (being used at the same time) trying to stay far enough away not to get hit with a bola. So in essence even 100% accurate macro'd explosion potions is already just a mosquito bite. I don't think it was an issue of who was using what macro or if it was an exploit. You ressed restocked and went for revenge.

    Once you have been throwing them for a while you may as well just be using a macro because you will not miss that much.

    The problem with that macro is that's the only macro you can use. Using another macro will switch it and you will be stuck with a pot blowing up on you.

    You can heal with a bandage faster then you can purple someone on the run with full health. So I also don't see a problem with throwing potions on the run. Its just another form of damage, for example a lightning wand witch does what 6 damage here on a good day? I can use 4 charges in 4 seconds to = 24 damage that a purple would do, whats the difference? Not to mention the fact that without horse stamina or a bolas implemented, you can essentially run forever out of a fight. I'm not sure if you have seen some dexxers fight here but its mostly them running as fast and long as they can when they see a spell being cast.

    Most of my purple experience have been with potions that that actually count randomly, for example it can start with a 4 or a 3, but in that situation at least i know when i have to throw it and succeed doing damage. I actually still count like a drummer at the 2, in order to know when i need to release it without being too early, or hit myself.
    (although it was 5 or 4, and the potion exploded on the 1, meaning you had to through between 2-1, but same idea)

    I just don't agree with maybe it will hit maybe it won't. And I'm slowly seeing options of all the aspects of pvp dwindling to slow, boring either be a dexxer or get as many people as you can to cast explosion before they recall through a delayed damage spell.

    *side note Bart is mad about firebreath but is scared to write something.
  12. Blaise

    Blaise Well-Known Member
    UO:R Subscriber

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2012
    Messages:
    7,696
    Likes Received:
    3,587
    Interesting, I've found that when I'm fighting mages as soon as I get a fairly decent damage hit with my weapon, they run like the dickens until their bandage kicks or they can get enough range to pull off a gheal before my next hit.
    These are not meant to be sniper rifles, they are more like a shotgun. Tossing them with %100 accuracy while running 'other' macros, is ridiculous to assume should be possible.

    You do realize that the entire game was designed to be done without Razor automating %50 or more of all functions?
    It would seem you just want to play in Razor automation land where everything's fast paced mana dumps, wand spam and purple rain (booya, Prince reference).

    Having a single key on my dexxer now to 'Use Explosion Potion' seems to suit just fine, with the various Target Nearest keys I have configured. I guess I should play with them more to get more experienced, but I'll certainly never be reliant on them for combat, which is what I gather you are gunning for.

    Side Note: Anyone who gives a shit about the shard and the changes, should speak up and bring valid points to the table for discussion. Bart included. Words can never hurt...too much ;)

    Side side note: Implement mount fatigue.
  13. Mes

    Mes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,402
    Likes Received:
    2,938
    Btw in respect to having the potion start randomly between 3-5 to confound a macro : I found that you could just make a macro to look for a sys message that says 1 and then throw after the appropriate pause to still hit every time.
  14. Tater Salad

    Tater Salad New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2012
    Messages:
    312
    Likes Received:
    10
    I'm not saying it would confound a macro that's just how it was. If people were using a macro it wasn't a concern, only it handicapped other macros while said macro was being used. So really it only hurts the person using the macro. What i'm trying to say is 100% accuracy on an already not as powerful weapon as it could be with alchemy bonus is already a step back for the time period of pvp, so even macro'd accurate pots being a target of any focus is what concerns me in the direction of pvp mechanics.

    Without the alchemy bonus being available here I run mostly tank mages, and running a tank mage with tactics having bola's available, and spells applying their damage faster, I rarely even used an explosion potion. I suppose I'm just making a mountain out of a mole hill with my overall frustration with all of the mechanics and focusing on potions now, as it seems futile to even return to the other topics as they have been ignored for the duration of my stay on the shard so far.
  15. Spooner

    Spooner Active Member
    UO:R Subscriber

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2013
    Messages:
    118
    Likes Received:
    31
    It's just a shame that people rely so heavily upon razor and guaranteed hits and combos in order to pvp in this game. It cheapens the original spirit of the mechanics.
  16. Tater Salad

    Tater Salad New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2012
    Messages:
    312
    Likes Received:
    10
    I dunno someone told me tonight that I care too much.

    I guess it isn't fair to expect stuff that I'm used to or took for granted as the norm to be the same for everyone.
  17. napo

    napo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2013
    Messages:
    771
    Likes Received:
    510
    I'm a fan of the idea that pvp should be less about what items you decided to bring along and more about the abilities of your character and how you use them.
    There seem to be some "mages" on this server who think that pvp is about following another person with a vanq hally while tossing purple pots and using a single spell combo to finish them after doing 60+ damage with weaponsand purple pots. And if they ever get in trouble, they use wands and pots to heal.
    I don't have a problem with people using items to supplement their play, but when items are actually more useful to a player than their primary combat skill, that's not really something I can say that I'm in favor of.

    It's not like I'm a developer, but the happy place for potions to be in my opinion is where you can target them manually but they are too tricky for a one button razor macro to use.
  18. Tater Salad

    Tater Salad New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2012
    Messages:
    312
    Likes Received:
    10
    So you're saying if i play a tank mage you don't want me to hit you with my weapon?

    As far as items are concerned there is a big difference between dueling and field fighting. I don't like people using tamers to fight but it happens. I don't think people should para spam but certain people tend to do that as well.

    In any event I guess you got your wish since purples and wands nerfed. I guess the next step would be to remove pots or have them work half of the time.
  19. Neo

    Neo New Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2013
    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    0
    The issue with purps hit 100% of the time that i always seen was people would play click and follow type chars. You are your wep and spam purps at someone via a 1 key macro over and over again. It at no point takes any actual skill to do this. Given that 95% of the server in the field if they get even somewhat low on hp its run for the hills time even in a 1v1 fight because they for whatever reason lack the ability to figure out how to heal threw a dump and use other mechanics of the game such as simply being close enough to disturb someones casting with wrestling. I know GH wands are still pretty effective here dank showed that off the other night as he ran away from me spaming a gh wand. Maybe its just me but back in the day before razor or similar programs you never even seen people atleast on any shard i played using purple potions. Soon as the figured out hey i can spam and hit this for x amount of dmg everytime they became the norm as people will use anything they can to make thier chance of losing less. I understand field is different then say dueling but insisting that u gotta be able to hit 100% of the time with pots is silly. Why not make spells do a specific amount of dmg everytime then. What would be the difference? Nothing should be 100% reliable thats what makes uo pvp what it is you have to be able to use a vast amount of different abilitys to win not just rely on 1 ezmode button to win that just takes out all the challange of the game.
  20. Tater Salad

    Tater Salad New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2012
    Messages:
    312
    Likes Received:
    10
    It seems like the issue is that people on this shard can't handle dying. So anything that got them killed aside from 'skilled' magery delayed casting should be removed.

    I'm beginning to wonder if any of you have been in a large scale fight, where it comes down to the fact that you need to conserve mana, or all of your mana is gone, and you resort to other methods of attack, witch under current conditions are baby hits from a wand or a maybe I'll do damage from a pot.

    And I don't understand peoples aversion to being damaged on the run? I don't know about you guys but I think it is a lot more fun to kill someone or be killed before it ever comes down to a person deciding they just want to run all over the place for an hour. All these mechanics do is make it impossible for a solo pvper to use other methods of survival and damage. In the end it encourages larger gank groups because no other method of attack is viable, aside from 3 people casting at the same time.

    If you just want to use magery to test your skills and not use items, form a dueling league or go to fight night. Don't run around in a 3 man pk squad and scrunch your panties because someone used a gheal wand or hit you with a pot when you were trying to run away like a girl.

    Anyone that is 'skilled' at uo pvp should be livid with pots that you can't control. Who is going to use an attack that will blow up in your hand and disrupt any combo you had started. Why do you want to make it EASIER for people to run like scared little children than it already is.

    Trying to micro manage what people can macro or do successfully is only going to result in poor experience all around. You aren't getting rid of razor, people are going to set macros. Welcome to uo. Stop ruining it by trying to reinvent the wheel and just let the son of a bitch roll like should.

    I don't see anyone complaining when people post fishing or crafting macros, or casting & restocking for 5 days while they get you gm resist with razor.

    In any event the potion change is just a nail in the coffin for people like myself, witch unfortunately for me is the minority it seems.

Share This Page