Justice Virtue - this could be the one!

In an unrelated thread, we struck upon a potential use for Justice Virtue.

While it has previously been suggested that pk's location be given "globally" I agree that is a bit over powered and can be abused too easily.

However, what if the alert system worked thusly:

You must enter and leave a dungeon to trigger the justice message, or go to the court of justice and say "Justice" near a jailer.


First tier, you receive alerts if a current pk (red name) is on the same dungeon level in the same dungeon as you.

Second tier, you receive an alert if a pk is anywhere in the same dungeon as you (level given only, not exact location)

Third tier, you are alerted any time a pk sets foot in any dungeon

Ideas for gaining justice and controlling farming:
killing a pk will gain justice virtue and drain the pk's negative karma. Somebody with -10k karma or less will yield "you served a little justice"

-100k karma will yield "you served a good deal of justice"

-200k or more will yield "you served a great deal of justice"

When a pk dies their total murder counts aren't affected but their karma is neutralized significantly (I would say dying to a player causes positive karma of about 10-20k and stops at 0). This would both serve as a control and deterrent for farming justice on alts because you can only gain justice 5 times per day and you can only gain a little justice after about 2 kills on your alt.

This might also cause negative karma to become a commodity or title of prestige. Somebody with a lot of negative karma probably hasn't been killed in a while. (Pk's who keep their kill logs private will be assumed they are killing alts )

OK now vote! And give ideas!

I do like the idea of all the virtues having a use. Mostly I like your suggestions for the Justice one.
But I disagree with the idea of of pkers who keep their kill logs private to assumed to be killing Alts.
They just might be private people. I don't have Marjo's profile public, for personal reasons, none of which have to do with negative or positive karma.


Thanks for this thread. Interesting one.




Westra/Marjo

Governess of Wispfelt

I think this system could work, needs a little fine tuning but you're defiitely getting somewhere with this.

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Alright let me get some clarification. Regardless of tier, the only time the messages are triggered is upon entering/exiting a dungeon or @ the court of justice?

So on third tier for instance, its not that you are chilling at your house and you get an alert that a pk just recalled into ice dungeon, but you would have to be actively(via macro or by hand) entering and exiting a dungeon on your justice character?


Then, again on third tier, if it is only on entering/exiting, if you pop into wrong and there is a pk actively inside despise, will you get a message that says something like "not wrong you idiot, go to despise there is a pk there"?

I'm thinking justice is a little more serious so she would say something more like, "you sense the scales of justice are out of balance in Wrong"

I think the third tier could be modified. Maybe you just get an alert, "you sense the scales of justice are out of balance" and then you have to go to court of justice to find out which dungeon they are in.

I'm completely open for structuring the tiers differently.

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Ya know, I love the idea of the justice virtue being activated, I just think giving away locations is too much. Its not like there are an abundance of different hotspots in each individual dungeon. If you get a message that someone was pk'd in deciet, they are at lich lords. Despise= ogre lords or cyclops, wrong=executions, ice dungeon=ww's or aol's, and so on. Tracking and hotspot runebooks also already largely make this possible. I track/run into other pks all the time because we are all using the same hotspots to check.

Not trying to derail but an idea I had for justice was to have it upon use give a target, select a murderer and it rends them unable to recall/accept gates for X amount of time. Each tier of justice increases that amount of time, with top tier justice being applied to a pk basically forcing the pk to run out the entrance of the dungeon. Then the meta for pk hunters would be to farm until a pk rolls up, use the justice virtue on them and then flush them out. The criminal timer is honestly so short that currently by the time a posse can assemble, the pk is long gone. This would be a tool to extend that timer and it would allow anti pk groups to recall to the entrance of the dungeon and flush through it in hopes of catching the bright red hued murderer.

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The idea actually came when I pk'd a TnT tamer who must have been in voice with SL cause they mobbed in and we had a ridiculously fun chase. This was only possible because they were all in voice and were thus able to respond before the criminal timer went up. Well, average joe does not sit in voice with a group of pvpers on standby. Average joe is gunna hop into IRC and let everyone know that he just got pk'd at bloods BUT he was able to drop a tier 3 justice(something like 5-7 min) onto PFR. Now anyone in IRC can respond by recalling to the entrance of the dungeon and running towards bloods. Currently, if average joe does this, PFR is gone before anyone can get there, even if they recalled straight into bloods. Its currently an either your in voice with a mob of pvpers or your not, kinda game.

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I like this idea too, but I think it takes us too far into "pvp" mechanics and anything that interferes with pvp wouldn't take hold.

I get what you're saying with the way hunters would be able to guess where the action most likely is, but if anything in my days of Paws has taught me is that anything can happen. I bet you find a pk at the entrance of Covetous at harpies? Sure you land a tier 3 justice on him, but then he's out the door and you've wasted your tier 3 justice tag because good luck.

Now in the proposed idea in this thread, it can't conceivably interfere with pvp mechanics. It doesn't remove the element of risk because you do still have to engage your target. And yes it's true that pks are probably in the hot spots but you still have to be out in dungeons looking for them. You can't just sit in your tower, wait for an alert and then gate dragons in.

I think would also introduce a viable sub-game that is needed by the community for anti-pk hunters. Nothing is more aggrivating than to spend a night hunting pk's and either a) have nothing to show for it because they're so damned hard to find or b) have mud on your face, and nothing to show because you got dirt napped.

At least you could walk away knowing you gained some justice points and you neutralized a pks karma significantly. If they truly want to be the biggest peacock, they'll have to show they can run red and have max negative Karma.

I do like @One 's incorporation of the oven's suggestion. Those prompts would be bad arse! Maybe the pvp crowd could muscle that idea if it came at the cost of the user's justice? at max justice you have two options: Option 1) keep all your karma and have a gimped tracking ability option Option 2) sacrifice all your justice to remove recall/gate and you get those bad a messages

I'm just going to copy and paste the relevant posts from the derailed thread which spawned this one.

Dalavar makes a good point and I think El Horno provides the best solution here:

I do not like these ideas.

On OSI, the Justice Virtue was used to create an incentive for players to actually engage Murderers, rather than avoiding them and running away.

It was never intended to create an advantage for the players seeking to bring Murderers to Justice.

Velner

I think the Justice virtue gaining should be tied to short-term murder counts. That's something everyone must care about, whereas karma is something people might care about, but probably not. And it might help prevent farming alts for Justice.

I think being able to apply the criminal timer would be awesome... though the time period needs to be well-thought over. 30 minutes is crazy... you're about to log off for the night, just going to check one last dungeon for some victims, and oops someone had virtue and now you're not going to bed for another half hour.... (not to mention, you could conceivably fight off anti-PKs successfully for 15 minutes, but by then you're out of reagents or something).

5 minutes seems like it would be a good time for the highest Justice level, but that's just my guess. Or maybe 2 minutes, 4 minutes, and 6 minutes for each respective level, so that the first level matches the normal criminal timer.

Stat loss was intended to be somewhat of a hindrance to murdering rampantly, but that doesn't really pan out on freeshards with 3 accounts and no subscription fee. Since we're all pretty sure power scrolls won't ever appear here, we should probably stick to what might make sense for this shard.

I have always liked the idea of PK hunters, PK hunting doesn't really happen here often because it all happens too fast, and PKs usually recall/gate around faster than a hunter can catch up to them.

I could see buffing Tracking for characters with the Justice virtue AND Forensic Evaluation so that if you manage to track a PK, but then the PK leaves the area before you can engage him/her, your justice virtue will tell you which dungeon the PK is now in(or Britannia, The Lost Lands, etc). The tracking arrow could stay applied while you try to find them again for like 30 seconds or whatever. You could also perhaps use forensic evaluation on the corpse of a player within a certain time frame and receive the message indicating which area the person who killed him/her is in(assuming you have the appropriate level in the justice virtue).

I think implementing something like this or the other ideas suggested would only be justified(lol) if the justice character had to have tracking and forensic evaluation, and thus be a character dedicated and invested in the cause and hopefully keep said characters relatively rare and legendary. Otherwise, I think it could be a bit much.

Was this at bloods? If so, I totally remember that. We were on you like white on rice. So much running!

Yep.

This thread delivers.