Provocation questions

Discussion in 'Era Discussion' started by Blaise, Aug 3, 2012.

  1. Luminary

    Luminary New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2012
    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    0
    *double post delete*
  2. Zagyg

    Zagyg Active Member
    UO:R Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2012
    Messages:
    507
    Likes Received:
    47
    Provoking is not 'totally awesome' as it stands now. It's not Renaissance and it's not Publish 16 either. It's a few bits of this and that from here and there which restrict bards greatly and several of those bits are bugged on top of it.

    Can you still kill things with Provocation as it is and get loot? Yes. But that doesn't mean it's fine. We could all wrestle monsters to death too - does that mean weapons are overpowered and they should be removed from the game? Ebolt and Explosion do a lot of damage - what the hell do we need Flamestrike and Summon Daemon for? We could defintely kill things without those spells.

    Looking at bards all by themselves with no other considerations, it's currently a crappy class. Sucks at PvP by design; no matter what your build you're going to have to drop at least one vital skill. And it's not great at PvM either. Say you have two or more monsters provoked - you're limited to an extremely tight area to keep them provoked. If another monster enters your little provo circle, especially if it does poison damage or casts spells, often you can't stay in that tight a space and stay alive. You break provo and have to start all over again. Monsters spell-casting range is currently set to the exact same range as barding skills so you pretty much have to allow yourself to get blasted often to lure monsters close enough to provoke them which burns regs/aids and just generally sucks. If you're a member of a guild and are being backed up by other players who have the skills you lack as a bard you probably see no problem with it, but it's there. And I can farm as a solo bard now and do alright, but that's because the server population is very low and I don't pick premium hot spots. I can roll for hours and never see another living soul and that's why it works, not because barding is fine as it is. When server pop goes up and PKs become more prevalent, if nothing has changed solo bards will be a thing of the past.

    Looking at Bards as compared to Tamers, it's staggering how slanted things are in favor of pet owners. Some people think the old style 'set it and forget it' Provocation was extremely lame and overpowered, but I don't see how 'all kill' followed by a nap and then looting corpses takes any skill. Wow... you sicced your two white wyrms and nightmare on a monster and killed it... for the five thousandth time... I don't hate Tamers but come on, let's be realistic. Two macro buttons are all a Tamer needs - 1) dismount/all kill/target and 2) check pet health/bandage if hits <. That's better than provoking somehow? Allow me to continue.... Tamers have bonded pets; Bards newbied instruments break. Tamer walks in a room containing one monster - Ancient Lich, Balron, whatever - all kill, nap, loot; Bard walks in and walks back out because he has nothing to provoke. Tamer comes across a monster that cannot be provoked - all kill, nap, loot; Bard sees unprovokable monster and sucks his thumb. 'All kill' never fails and your white wyrm never breaks from use; Provoking fails, buddy and you're the NPC tinker's best customer. Tamers can actually run off-screen and take a nap because 'all kill' doesn't have a control range; Bards have to stay within seven tiles of their targets (supposed to be 10 but it's not working that way). Tamer sees a PK run on-screen - all kill, chase; Bard sees a PK and wonders, again, why the hell he hasn't built a Tamer yet.
  3. Luminary

    Luminary New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2012
    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    0
    While I agree on most of the points you've made, it seems to me that you think bards should be in someway equal to an animal tamer in the trade of pvm. I don't mean to state that they should be weak, or garbage, but even when the changes to provocation come which remove the distance check which causes them to stop fighting, I don't see how this will make them any stronger in comparison to a tamer.

    Also, a bard is not completely crippled in pvp, not if you choose the proper build. I don't have a bard here, but you should definitely be able to provoke animals and creatures onto another player. Using a 5x build + music and provocation, you would be able to use the spawn to your aid in a pvp situation. I have seen this done on numerous occasions, specifically in the balron lair in terathan keep. The small chamber and many rooms make it a death trap for another player if you are skilled enough to provoke a balron or terathan avenger onto another player. The intelligent AI here make them even better in terms of using them against a hostile player, be it a blue-pk (criminal) or an actual pk.

    A few things I wanted to point out in your post which you covered, but the context can be taken the wrong way. You are only allowed 1 bonded pet per character, so tamers really cannot simply "go to sleep" and then loot everything. Almost every bonded pet I've seen is a nightmare, so if your dragons/wyrms die you still are required to replace them, and they once again take stat-loss when being tamed. Newbied instruments do indeed break, but to add to this we have slayer instruments which as far as I have seen, make the small list of difficult creatures to provoke, easily provoked. Regarding creatures which are bard-immune, I'm not really sure where you were trying to go with this but there have always been creatures which are immune to barding effects (UO:R going forward, champions, bosses, etc)

    Again, I agree with the overall focus of your post, but some points were written poorly and make it seem worse than it is.
  4. Double Vision

    Double Vision New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2012
    Messages:
    482
    Likes Received:
    3
    Here's my view


    120 Skill level to provo *Take out* this isn't AOS and there's no power scrolls

    Having to be on screen for them to stay provoked, we'll that's a first for me. Never seen that on a server before, Don't see what's wrong with the original "Provoke recall to bank drop something off and come back".
    Provocation/Music is one of the main temps people make to get going on a server to get cash to build their characters or get a house. Like the saying goes, if it ain't broke don't fix it.. we'll tbh it's broke.
  5. Luminary

    Luminary New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2012
    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    0
    Please, do your research before posting anymore. This was disabled a long time ago and is stated in the patch notes. Posts like these are what confuse new and old players alike.
  6. Zagyg

    Zagyg Active Member
    UO:R Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2012
    Messages:
    507
    Likes Received:
    47

    Nice post. I like the tact and the thought that went into it and the fact that someone gave that much serious consideration to a post of mine. :) You didn't make any radical statements or draw absurd conclusions but I'm still going to step up to the debate plate against the few criticisms you had, point by point.

    I only made direct comparisons between similar attributes or situations for Bards or Tamers, mostly with regard to PvM. The comparison of bonded pets to newbie instruments is a simple one - it's something that a player has that can be brought back after death. If it is used at all, a newbie instrument will eventually break. Whatever bonded pet a tamer has can be used for infinity. Regardless of what pet a player chooses to bond with, this is Point - Tamer. The subject of stat-loss for pets is irrelevant in this discussion because there is no corresponding ability or item belonging to Bards to compare it to. Also, even though this is only tangent to this discussion, I'd like to point out that I've spent a great deal of time standing around hidden watching Tamers do what they do and it's the same simple thing over and over with the same results every time. I have not yet seen a single player with two dragons/wyrms lose any of their pets to even the strongest monsters in this game, so I don't guess 'replacing' them is much of a hassle.


    I'll explain where I was going with that by also using another quote from your post -

    Actually, it finally occured to me yesterday just how truly outclassed Bards are by Tamers in almost every way. Before this thread I always thought it was debatable but then things became crystal clear as I wrote my last post. And so the point I was making with the subject of bard-immune creatures and other comparisons was not that Bards could or should be the equal of Tamers; it was that they absolutely are not and never will be and so it makes no sense to regard Bards as overpowered characters in need of a good nerfing while Taming Tanks run all over everything. You actually kind of got my point there, even without thinking that's what I was getting at. No upgrade or retrograde for the class could make Bards the equal of Tamers, not even removing range limits as you said. I'm not arguing that Bards should be powered up to Tamer status or that Tamers should be nerfed; I'm just making arguments for why Bards should be elevated from the bad joke status they're at now.



    No matter what way I worked on it, I couldn't come up with a bard build that wasn't missing at least one important PvP skill -

    GM Music
    GM Provoke
    GM Eval Int
    GM Magery
    GM Med
    GM Swords
    GM Tactics

    ^Where's Resist?

    GM Music
    GM Provoke
    GM Anatomy
    GM Swords
    GM Tactics
    GM Healing
    GM Resist

    ^Great if you're planning on running everywhere without Magery. Also missing GM Swimming to get you back from islands. Unless of course you have friends helping you, in which case (like I said in my original post) you're not worried about the skills you lack. Sucks for solo bards though.

    I've always said that was intentionally done, forcing Bards to commit 100 skill points to Music to hurt them in PvP. About Provoking onto attackers - under original UO bard rules it was just a way to buy yourself a little time to escape; here it's not even viable. Given that any PK is going to be mounted, even if you were lucky enough to have a strong and easily provokable monster with a lot of health standing very close to you but not trying to kill you, the PK would be out of range of your bard ability in 1.5 seconds flat. At which point the monster would turn on you and the PK would run back on screen too. More likely is that you've already got any monster within range of your bard skills provoked onto one another, so in your Balron room example you'd provoke one Balron onto a PK and it would gimp along after him while getting smacked in the back by the other Balron. Not very useful.

    I see this issue 20/20. I'm not going to pretend it's any better than it is or make it out to seem worse than it really is. If what I have to say sounds bad, it's only because it really IS that bad.
  7. Luminary

    Luminary New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2012
    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    0
    The build I was referring to was:

    Mage / Med / Eval / Resist / Wrestle / Music / Provoke

    5x + music skills.
  8. Zagyg

    Zagyg Active Member
    UO:R Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2012
    Messages:
    507
    Likes Received:
    47
    Thanks. That sounds like something that I could at least put up a competent defense with.
  9. Gideon Jura

    Gideon Jura Well-Known Member
    UO:R Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Messages:
    6,364
    Likes Received:
    5,579
    .
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  10. Double Vision

    Double Vision New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2012
    Messages:
    482
    Likes Received:
    3

    K and you do the same cause I can post a few things you were wrong about like the 35% damage bonus LJ give. Negating the troll, Provo still should be fixed to where you can provo and move off screen to pull more.
  11. yaadood

    yaadood Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2012
    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    2
    UOSA Bard rules weren't in need of nerfing at all. It's not like there weren't people that made tamers there- and could make MORE money FASTER than a bard, when the char was complete. It's ridiculous right now. You need to be able to offscreen if you're going to try to go through anywhere like the terathan keep. Even under UOSA rules that was a very difficult place to PvM- now forget it. But a tamer can still do it exactly the same as before.

    If you have spent any time PK'ing you will know that a bard has no possible defense against a PK via provoking. They're only option is to try and have a 5x mage and fight, or recall.

    I honestly don't even think we should have slayer instruments or anything like that. All these bard changes were blatantly made by OSI gearing up for champ spawns/120 skill/new AoS style monsters- and we don't need any of that. That's why we came here to play. UOSA Bard wasn't broken at all. Why fix it?
  12. Zagyg

    Zagyg Active Member
    UO:R Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2012
    Messages:
    507
    Likes Received:
    47
    Best post of yours I've seen so far. I believe the changes were also due to the existence of the Trammel facet, although Tamers were playing in the same world and got upgraded instead of nerfed. That was probably a calculated player attracting/money-making move though, because it makes no sense at all in terms of game balance - it only created a greater and more obvious imbalance.
  13. Wise

    Wise Well-Known Member
    UO:R Subscriber

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2012
    Messages:
    1,901
    Likes Received:
    476
    I see you point and perhaps in the future it might make sense to 'lighten up' on the bards. However, at this point, even with incomplete barding (I'm at 92) I can still safely farm for hours without being bothered because the server population is still low and to make matters worse, not everyone is in the same timezone.

    Keeping barding more challenging for now is fine because the threat of PK is not very high. Once we hit over 200 unique ip's per day over a decent period of time maybe it will make more sense to loosen up some barding skills to make it a more balanced character to play.
  14. Zagyg

    Zagyg Active Member
    UO:R Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2012
    Messages:
    507
    Likes Received:
    47
    I said earlier that the only reason a solo bard works now is because there are few to no PKs, especially at non-premium spawns. However, that is not even in the least little bit a valid argument for keeping bards super-nerfed. Dexxers, tamers, everyone is playing the same game - they don't have to deal with PKs either, but they aren't getting nerfed because of that fact.
  15. Wise

    Wise Well-Known Member
    UO:R Subscriber

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2012
    Messages:
    1,901
    Likes Received:
    476
    Agreed. However, I can make a ton of money with my bard in lets say 2 hours. It would probably take me over 8 hours to make the same money with a anything but a tamer.

    If Bards all of the sudden become super strong it will make the gold earning problem even worse because then you could theoretically farm 2 spots at the same time if the aggro system was like the one on uosa for example. I don't think even a tamer would be able to make as much as a bard farming 2 spots at the same time.
  16. Zagyg

    Zagyg Active Member
    UO:R Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2012
    Messages:
    507
    Likes Received:
    47
    Here's the thing - a nerf to bards isn't a fix for the built-in problems with a UO economy. In fact, a righteous nerf to every single class in the game wouldn't fix that problem, it would only slow it down some. I'm sure staff here is well aware of that fact and is probably working on an innovative way to deal with it, because they seem to be a clever bunch of fellows. :) If you argue that making bards stronger would accelerate the problem then you're putting the burden of that problem on bards, and it isn't.

    I don't know what your idea of 'super strong' is but I'd agree that before there were unprovokable and/or isolated super-monsters, pet training and other goodies, bards were the best at PvM. I believe that was intentional since they sucked at PvP. Then tamers ran second in PvM intentionally again because they were also useful in PvP. I think that playing original strength bards in a PK-disabled environment would be ridiculous but we're PK-enabled here, they're just not making a full-time job out of runebooking through every half-decent spawn location every hour. Yet. Regardless, bard skills right now are bugged and based on incomplete information on a non-Renaissance era change. I'd settle for anything better sounding than that.
  17. Wise

    Wise Well-Known Member
    UO:R Subscriber

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2012
    Messages:
    1,901
    Likes Received:
    476
    I am all up for balance I just think that if barding got easier it would be less fun which for me personally means less time playing.
  18. Double Vision

    Double Vision New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2012
    Messages:
    482
    Likes Received:
    3


    Man you should meet elemento from UOSA. That dude would challenge people including malice to fight him in terra keep and he would use his provo skill to provo monsters onto people while he fought and did pretty darn good at it.

Share This Page