Recall: The middle road

Discussion in 'Era Discussion' started by One, Jun 12, 2017.

How about reducing the level of recalling through a runebook charge from 2nd circle to 1st circle?

  1. Yes, dexxers should be more able to recall.

    46.3%
  2. No, dexxers should continue to fail at the current rates.

    53.7%
  1. Gideon Jura

    Gideon Jura Well-Known Member
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    k :)
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  2. Majinko

    Majinko Active Member

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    I feel like this is along the vein of 'Why not just let characters GM all skills at once?'

    This game was designed around tradeoffs which allow for you to do whatever it is you want. You got 700 points each to spend wisely over 5 characters. Here, you have an additional 3x the characters to use at once. Gating your dexxer using another toon is a huge advantage you have in this recreated era vs back in 98-00 when the OSI rules were one account.

    Choosing a dexxer means you chose the life traveling on foot or depending on others for transportation be it taming you mounts or casting you gates. They even put in moongates to allow you to travel from landmass to island without a ship. Every template and play style has it's downside. This is a dexxers. You've got 14 other choices to pick from to fit the situation you're in.

    Runebooks are ALREADY the compromise for dexxers and other mageless classes. It gives you the opportunity to a) recall away, b) preselect your destination, c) hold 17 separate items as 1 item without the weight of those 17 items (16 runes and 10 recall scrolls). That compromise is fair.

    Going somewhere you're likely to get PK'd? Gate yourself to town with your mage on standby on the two other accounts available to you to use simultaneously. An increase to the ability to recall by non-mage templates has a direct negative correlation on choosing to be a player killer.
  3. One

    One Well-Known Member
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    This from the guy who wanted recall wands?

    Also runebooks offer nothing to dexxers that they don't to mages, unless they're blessed.

    And dexxers still suck.

    I think the community has spoken at this point and most people don't want it to change so I concede defeat. Things are pretty much gonna stay as they are.
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
  4. Majinko

    Majinko Active Member

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    A limited use recall wand as an expensive reward is different from fundamentally changing the game to allow non mages to recall away for next to nothing, which is what a no magery check on a runebook would be.

    It offers non mages the use of 1 of magery's greatest spells without the burden of carrying reagents.

    Then don't be a dexxer. Not every template or skill is fantastic. Some suck. Enter: beggars, dexxers, etc, and from what I read about your taming post, tamers if you had your way.

    Don't concede defeat if this is something you truly believe in. I only posted because I saw the thread was a recent one when I was looking through stuff and I wanted to express why I thought it was a terrible idea.
  5. One

    One Well-Known Member
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    Fundamentally crappier i.e. uninterruptible. That would change the game far worse and it would only benefit rich players. The point of this thread (there are a couple but) is to help players who DON'T have money for expensive crap like recall wands that would actually change the game far more than this. And they'd still fail half the time. I get that people have strong philosophical feelings about this topic and that most disagree with this premise. But I still can't figure out why. The vast majority of characters already have magery and would still have magery. In practice this only penalizes fairly niche templates.


    Someone told me there are slips of (cheap) paper that do the exact same thing and are sold at most of Britannia's player vendors, not to mention easily craftible with fairly little inscription.

    Dexxers are so shitty that I only use mine for Halloween, hence I never bothered to give her magery. However if I ever intend to use a dexxer giving her magery is a foregone conclusion.

    I do agree with one thing - Beggars and Dexxers is a good comparison. Both suck. Both keep asking for shit. Both never get shit. (Edit: The damage cap was raised by 10%. I would be remiss not to mention that.)

    Although I would buff beggars too if I had the chance but my ideas about that are far too custom for this shard. I don't like the idea of useless skills and I'd rather everything have some legitimate use.

    As for tamers - Did you play in-era? They did JUST fine without bonding. If bonding were removed I wouldn't necessarily want them to

    Thanks, but I truly believe in a lot of stuff that few others seem to. The vote is currently 32-24. We lost.

    I'm not going to keep advocating for this. In fact I had already given up when someone necrobumped it. For now I'm on an advocacy break.

    Time to do my actual homework not sit here advocate for hopeless ideas about a fictional world filled with hostile citizens.

    Thanks for your input. *Unwatch thread*
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
  6. Majinko

    Majinko Active Member

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    Yeah and they fail a percentage of the time because they aren't mages. And you want that to change because you want more than 700 skill points on your toon. Enter your other two accounts that give you a major advantage already over the era.

    If it were just the removal of bonding you were talking about, that's fine. But you want the pets nerfed too which, frankly, is ridic IMO.

    You're welcome. *clicks Post Reply*
  7. Cheapsuit

    Cheapsuit Active Member
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    If you disable recall and gating, then it's an even playing field and I'm all for that.
  8. One

    One Well-Known Member
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    This lost. The conclusion is we should all play mages. Thank you for your input.
  9. Zim

    Zim Active Member

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    I vote make recall 100% at any skill level, plus increase its cast time to bladespirit level.
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  10. One

    One Well-Known Member
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    THIS.

    Recall 100% from books. 5 second delay or whatever blades are.

    Gate as it is. Also 5 second delay.
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
  11. Nusir

    Nusir Active Member

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    but why?
    next you will be asking for Chiv and Necro to be patched into the game...
  12. One

    One Well-Known Member
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    I quit OSI before Chivalry and Necromancy were introduced. And I've never played on a shard that had them. So I can't say much about them one way or another. I think there was one spell that banished ghost spies though I'd be fine with that.

    The point of this thread and several I made in the past was making it more fun to play a non-mage dexxer.

    Zim's suggestion to increase the casting time is, in my opinion, the perfect balance. Dexxers can get from point A to point B and players of all types can't run away as easily. So PKing would get easier, not harder, anf all you tough guys can spare us the "Trammel!!" hysteria.
  13. Nusir

    Nusir Active Member

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    I honestly think there is nothing wrong with the current skill required for recall, casting time etc and the only issue I can see is that people want to have a 'pure dexxer' and skill want to be able to have one of the biggest benefits of magery. Recalling.

    most of my templates include magery purely for the recall function, it would be OP if it wasn't, like having 800 skill points instead... or at least free up 50 points in most cases.
  14. One

    One Well-Known Member
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    You're in the majority. As of right now 54% want recall to stay as it is. I disagree but the people have spoken, so changing it wouldn't really be right.

    All of my templates include magery. For this reason. I would like to be able to have parrying on my lumberjack or run a bard dexxer (among other templates) but it's just not worth dealing with the fizzling. In my opinion even making it (slightly) easier to recall still wouldn't even make dexxers as useful as mages for most purposes, but it would be something.

    However as you see, the people have spoken. Tradition is strong here, so I doubt it'll change any time soon.
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017 at 11:23 AM
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  15. Cheapsuit

    Cheapsuit Active Member
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    What if recalling required tactics? Would you say it was unfair to mages, since the skill isn't already required in their template? See how that works? It's never funny when the rabbit has the gun.
  16. Nusir

    Nusir Active Member

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    But it doesn’t need tactics, that’s changing what’s already in place... it’s like giving us all 800 skill points, yeah amazing till you considered that everyone has 800 and would be a full mage + full Dexxer or the silly templates would become practical
  17. Cheapsuit

    Cheapsuit Active Member
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    The point I was trying to make was that traveling happens to be used by the one skill that all mages must have, so its extremely convenient for them.
    Magery isn't a skill that all dexxers must have, which makes it an inconvenience for some of dexxers.
    OSI realized this unfairness, and tried to fix it by adding a means to travel through chivalry, although all dexxers don't need chivalry, its still a skill that can be extremely useful for a dexxer. Some have suggested rather than changing what's already in place, just allow recalling using a runebook a 100% success rate. They still have the risk of dying and losing the runebook, unless it's blessed. You'd be surprised how many of us don't have blessed runebooks.
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  18. Cyan

    Cyan New Member

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    Been playing on this server now for a few weeks. Started playing UO back in the day and quit the same day Trammel was introduced. Ok, so sometimes I did get back to it and played with friends and whatnot or just to try to experience new content and whatnot.

    I have also played on diffrent free servers. All from only felluca to all the content. I've been in Ilshenar, done some champion killing, even managed to solo a few of them. Might even have played on this server before. Cant say i remember if I have or not. So i have been around on and off since the launch.

    First of all recall is the utility spell nr 1. Cannot think of any other spell that is more usefull.

    So about recall and dexxer and such then. I really like the idea of dexxers. Have I tried to play one. Yes. Has it ever been my main character? Nope, never. All the classes I ever play have always been some kind of mage. From pure mage, bard mage, tamer mage and well... something or other mage. Still I always make a dexxer and if I find cool people to hang out with maybe take my dexxer and hack stuff just for fun with em. It is a diffrent play style then mage.

    But almost always dexxer have been gimped one way or another. This server being no diffrent. Ok so yeah. It says Renaissance era. But it also says History Perfected. That being there is room for change.

    Nowadays if you play a full content server dexxers are one of the most powerfull killing machines out there, when it comes to pvm, not pvp. But dexxers are extremly gear dependent, so if you want one you really need the cash to get the items for them . On those servers and here, read somewhere that a good slayer weapon here can go for 2 million. So if a dexxer want to go hunting solo. And of all the previous exerpience in UO I have alot of pvm is soloing. So if i have a dexxer and want to make gold. Real gold that means I gotto have a slayer weapon. Hopefully a good slayer weapon and ofcourse an armor that also is pretty decent. Now im kitted to the teeth with Vanq weapon and Invul armor. So then i get to my dungeon but since I cannot recall I need to rely on a mage. And if shits hits the fan it is every man for himself. The mage recalls and the reds probably focuse on me becouse he sees me and thinks:

    Mmmm... Scrumptious... A free dexxer meal and it is all for me. Nom nom nom.

    So when someone dies what do they stand to loose?

    A mage? Not so much. Buy a GM leather armor, get yourself some regs and you are pretty much good to go again. A horse maybe.

    Tamer mage? Bout the same. Maybe gotto ress those pets and get some bandages.

    Bard mage? Same as mage really. Perhaps a slayer instrument. So not that bad either.

    Dexxer? Your armor and Vanq slayer weapon.

    Yeah it is Felluca. Dying is part of this and is the thrill and whatnot. But of all the classes the one that has got the most to loose is the dexxer and he is not allowed to recall. The tamers loose some skill on thier dragons but thats nothing. Just let those beasts train with your macro after your done for the night. That would be so awesome for a dexxer to just macro a few hours and get their Vanq weapon back. As a bard I might loose a slayer instrument. Currently I am playing as a bard. So far I have found quite a few slayer instruments. Got one repond and three silvers and some other stuff. Total amount of weapon slayers i have found: Mace with flamedousing of might.

    This was a brave attempt to have a poll but I dont think the dexxer community is big enough to make this change, it is definitly not as big as tamer or bard. If these thing are to be implimented only when a mayority of the players want them nothing will change for the dexxers.

    Now i have seen other posts about things happening on the test server that would make it more benificial for dexxers, will these be enough? I do not know. But to close the gap maybe we should let people with 0 magery have the ability to cast recall, be it with 45 or 50% chanse or whatever. Be it with runebooks or something else, just try not to make it so that only the rich a few only can use it. And if the argument is that.. Well you have 3 accounts just make one into a gate bot and then you are set. Why not just instead give people the ability to recall since it is pretty much the same and everyone doesnt have to compile diffrent macros for everything just to get from A to B.

    OSI managed to see that recall was so fundemental to the game of UO that they gave it to the dexxers aswell with chivalry. Should we that have so many years of collective experiance of this game not see that this is something that we should let this class have. Not sure how some people see that as giving them 100 more skill points but maybe that is just me. And no not saying implement chivalry.

    As this server says this is the Renaissance era but also history perfected. I for one think it would give much to implement this one way or another. I hope i get to see dexxers running around not as afraid and more on equal terms as the all powerfull mage class. And perhaps i could even play one one day when i manage to find a slayer weapon that actually makes sense (or afford one (is if I could ever do that)).

    And maybe just maybe some compitition is healthy for all our mages.
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  19. Godric Greycliff

    Godric Greycliff Well-Known Member
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    I don't get it. I mean, I've seen this discussion forever. We've had it here every year since the shard went up and it wasn't, by any stretch of the imagination, a new topic of discussion for UO players then. I don't think any of you guys have terrible ideas and I don't see anyone here that seems to completely misunderstand the mechanics of the game but what is the real problem? It takes 5 skills to be a dexxer and you've got points to GM 7 of them. Maybe you add in lumberjacking for general axe-wielding badassery or mining cause that's just how we mine here on UOR or poisoning cause . . . um. . . well it's sorta applicable to being a dexxer and you really want it to be viable. Even after that you've got 100 points left to GM magery.

    I've got an LJ and a battle-miner. They've both got GM magery and they seem just right. No points to spare but I don't feel like they're missing anything. Actually, now that I think of it, I'm not sure if my miner has ever even made use of his GM magic resist that he got from one of those free magic resist events that greatly benefit all the no-magery dexxer purists that apparently abound here on UOR. . . so I guess I've been wasting points there. . . Man, it feels like I just got free skill points and I still have room for magery to cast recall and, you know, maybe one of those other situationally useful, fringe spells like heal, greater heal, cure, magic reflect or gate travel. (You guys are reading this in a sarcastic tone of voice, right?)

    Now before I offend any the posters above, let me reiterate that I don't see anyone here that doesn't seem to know what they're talking about and I don't see any ideas that I'm so opposed to that I care to voice an opinion against, however. . . This thread and most of the individual posts reference "dexxers" and the plight of no-magery recall success rates and by my estimation you can be as perfect as any "pure dexxer" can be, skill-wise, and still have room for GM magery (complete with 100% success rate on recall as well as some other nifty spells that might come in handy) . . . or not! It is literally your choice.

    So yeah. . . I don't get it. Am I doing the math wrong and dexxers just don't have room for all the skills that make a dexxer AND magery AND another elective skill? Or are we really talking about provo-dexxers, peace-dexxers and LJ battle-miners or some other suitably min-maxed specialist hybrid of templates? These guys need a leg up through a minor convenience of instant "PKs runaway" ability without any investment or immediate travel across the world un-aided by a character that can gate? (C'mon, we know you all already have that character or you wouldn't be spoiled enough to ask for free abilities.)

    Be honest. This isn't about "dexxers" and recall. At the least it's about something a little more specific. I bet that specific thing is some variety of PvM specialist. In which case I bet you're like me and have 100 mostly unused points devoted to something like resisting spells which you could drop, even just a little bit, to have the ability you want for free. You don't have to be 7xGM. Sometimes it's not the most effective way to go about things. But yeah, the template might be tight. You won't be perfect at everything. You might have to give up the dream of being a provo-archer-fisherman (which sounds stupid but is perfectly feasible, think about it). And if you're reading this paragraph and thinking about responding with something like, "but in PvP," just stop. Go train magery and stop it with worrying about free recalls. It's not that big of a deal and it was your choice.

    So no, I don't think any of you are stupid and none of your ideas need singled out for shooting down but c'mon people. I gotta vote no. If this isn't about free recalls for provo-dexxers, peace-dexxers and LJ battle-miners with GM resist then, by all means, enlighten me to the unduly nerfed template that needs a leg up but I'm not seeing it. Dexxers might need some help. Maybe PvP is too mage dominant but I don't see multiple threads about pure mages not being able to smash spawn on easy mode. The archery "buff" was laughable. Poor archers. Recall is such a minor issue for such a small segment of the population. It's also not a problem for dexxers at large, whose 25-50 points in intelligence is clearly enough to realize that if your job involves something other than replaying one specific instanced event or repeatedly destroying one particular mob with that slayer weapon then magery is still pretty much the most useful skill for reasons other than recall.

    Also, you could take a walk and enjoy the beautiful woodlands of Britannia. What!? All you see are tree stumps?
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  20. One

    One Well-Known Member
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    @Godric Greycliff you make a lot of good points and I appreciate your cordial tone.

    These are some if the templates I would like to try but whose value, to me, is destroyed in the overworld outside Ocllo by the almost complete inability to recall:

    LJ Archer:
    LJ
    Swd
    Arch
    Tac
    Anat
    Resist
    Healing

    Run in swinging, switch to bow if you get low on HP while you're healing.



    LJ Parrier:
    As above but with parrying, not archery. Parrying and a one handed versus some, axes versus others. As it stands now I wouldn't even consider parrying.


    Thief Dexxer:
    Fenc
    Tac
    Anat
    Resist (Hide)
    Heal
    Snoop (Stealth)
    Steal

    In addition to robbing people and fighting them (which I wouldn't be good at anyway myself but would have liked to try) you could also combine stealing from mobs with fighting them.



    Peace or Provo Dexxer:

    This is the one I really have in mind but haven't even bothered with due to the difficulty of getting from A to B.

    Melee
    Tac
    Anat
    Resist
    Heal
    Music
    Peace, Provo, or Disco



    I'd had PvM toons with no resist you do die much easier in my experience.

    I know all the people say quote scripture about mages being the only ones entitled to recall and choosing your templates but I just would enjoy the game more if I had any reason to use a dexxer outside of instanced content. As it stands there's no way I'd take a non-recaller out to PvM and sure as hell not to PvP (not any character without resist) because aside from the super annoying endless fails taking out a character with no recall would just make me a complete chump for PKs which honestly I think is the motivation for most of the people who voted no on this, not because they PK themselves but because "It's Felucca" and they think we need more dumb newbs to get dirtnapped to feel good about ourselves.

    I'm not saying this is you, just personally after 5 pages of this I still haven't seen a reason that makes sense to me not to do this other than "tradition", that it's theoretically possible to run non-mage or non-resist templated on dexxers, or that maybe it would overpower Dexxer Bards. These and people who reflexively oppose any change that they feel would make the game easier.


    TLDR: The ability to use more templates is a benefit in itself because more templates give the game more replay value.

    If you want me to choose a specific template I would choose provo dexxer. Especially with the increased population, including of PKs, taking a non-recaller out is dumb and so is using a character without resist in my opinion when tamers and mage bards can do it all.


    But thank you for your contributions!
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