Recall: The middle road

Discussion in 'Era Discussion' started by One, Jun 12, 2017.

How about reducing the level of recalling through a runebook charge from 2nd circle to 1st circle?

  1. Yes, dexxers should be more able to recall.

    55.6%
  2. No, dexxers should continue to fail at the current rates.

    44.4%
  1. Cheapsuit

    Cheapsuit Active Member
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    upload_2017-11-15_23-42-22.png

    This isn't a hypothetical, these are my actual skills. It took me LITERALLY 20+ times to recall home today. When people say "dexxers only need 5 skills" I'm assuming you're only referring to pvp. And although I do understand your argument of dexxers being able to squeeze in magery to travel, the point is we shouldn't have to. Should mages have to "squeeze in tactics to travel"? At this very moment while you're reading this, you're thing to yourself *that's ridiculous*. Am I right? But for dexxers, it's not ridiculous, it's a reality.
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  2. Cheapsuit

    Cheapsuit Active Member
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    upload_2017-11-15_23-52-11.png

    Also a reality, and not a hypothetical. I actually had to drop my poison fencer to become a mage just so I can pvp. This is reality, I''s actually training magery as we speak.
    Like the poster above said, what's the use in pvping with a dexxer if you aint running with runics? It's pointless. So the entire shard will be mages, fine.
  3. Godric Greycliff

    Godric Greycliff Well-Known Member
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    Wow, you guys actually responded with templates. I'm impressed. . . and now I feel obligated to comment on them individually. This will require criticism. Please don't take it personally and realize that a good portion of this will be opinion. If you feel like I'm saying dexxers are already overpowered or even good enough, please realize that nothing could be further from the truth. If it sounds like I'm trying to convince you to only play the most meta of templates and fun and creativity be damned, realize that I want to do nothing of the sort.

    First, I'd like to address the peace or provo-dexxer as I think it's the most viable and thereby, apt example presented. In either variation you've got 200 skill points allocated to ensure that casting mobs aren't targeting you already so, no, resist isn't that important. Beyond that, a dose of magic reflect will do you much more good whether we're talking about liches or PKs so I think you're over valuing the skill as it pertains to the role the character will play. Magery will serve you better at the only task the skill can have any effect over. You'll also get utility far surpassing just recalling around.

    The thief dexxer is hard for me to say bad things about because that was at one time my main character (not here, or even in this decade, mind you.) I kinda really like the thug thief. It just seems like we should have these guys walking around Britannia. And you're right magery doesn't really fit here and you would want it. Back in the day this character didn't need resist either because he likely stole in town where direct damage spells didn't work or he got to his marks by looking like an unassuming warrior just trying be nice cross-healing you (while actually rummaging through your bag to find something to steal.) This won't work here under our ruleset. I recommend you not go to either shard I'm aware of where this still works cause they're cesspools, there's fewer people with good stuff to steal and there's still no free recalls. I do think you should try the template out and have fun with it, though. . . or not and chalk it up to experience before moving on. What you have to understand is that you're posting this template in a thread about the "poor dexxers" and smashing the poor dexxer template in with the most shat-upon skillset we have on UOR. Of course it's not gonna be sweet easy-mode fat lewts and lulz. And this is before we even get to the part about the template being designed to make people want to attack you and -insert whatever you expect to hear about PvP and the necessity of magery- Which pretty much makes the free recall thing moot. And I hope you already play a thief so you know that what I'm about to say isn't just some stupid tamer running on about how he thinks stuff should be, but if you're going to steal you're gunna need to spend a LOT of time just running around looking for marks. Literally running around is gonna happen. There's no rune book full of spots where people just wait around to be stolen from. While it's perhaps not advantageous I bet if you give it a shot there'll be a time where you make a satisfying steal and say "man, I'd have never even found that guy if I could recall." Also, in my opinion, this character need not be 7xGM, leaving the door open to 30 or so magery for recall. I also noticed the jury was out on whether to have resist or hiding. . . there's a skill that kinda sorta does both those things.

    The LJ archery and LJ parry both seem like sensible things to want out of characters but yeah, I can see your looming disappointment. You're asking too much from the character. Not because those templates won't work. They will, man. They will work and they will do more things than you can possibly do all at the same time. They do too much already and you will have spent time and energy making them capable of doing all that stuff that they can't do all at the same time. I don't think we need a rules change to give these characters more abilities for free. I'm not telling you not to play those characters. They look perfectly fun. . . viable even. But you're wasting your LJ when you're using a shield or you're wasting your archery when you're using an axe. Why should the rules change for wasteful templates to get free recalls? By all means, play those characters. I will admire you for it 'cause those are MAN-Dexxers not some weenies who rely on magic reflect and g-heals. But they aren't nerfed cause there isn't room for magery. They're nerfed cause you CHOSE not to have magery and, might I reiterate, recall is a pretty minor part of that point.

    Cheapsuit, I also have nothing bad to say about your bard. . . just your expectations from it. I'm actually surprised I haven't tried that and been disappointed myself and then retrained. That's also just too much. Even the mages have to give up something they feel like they need to have peace AND provo. It just doesn't hurt so bad cause they still have magery which, last I checked, is pretty much the best skill ever for everyone. I know you want that character to be able to recall. I do to. But isn't what you really want 800 skill points. . . or 900? As a side note, the first thing I did after a lengthy hiatus was retrain a character into a pure bard that he'd previously been. He was sacrificed to some other experiment that turned out to be less than viable. He basically got the axe because all the bard skills are on the same timer. This severely limits the characters effectiveness respective to the skill point expenditure. It seems counter-intuitive but multiple bard skills just don't go well together. But I like the idea. So I went back. Maybe you'll feel this way about your bard but I don't see how your frustrations are over dexxers or recall cause they fit together. They don't fit together with multiple bard skills. That is a problem but one related to recall only because that's what you've chosen instead of recall.

    I don't know what to say about the stealth poisoner, though. Well, except for "I'm really glad I already took a shot at the futility of adding poisoning to a dexxer in my previous post." Poisoning is nearly pointless as it stands. At least it is in any great amount since it doesn't really matter what type of poison you hit another player with and every monster you'd want to poison either cures or is just straight immune. You should probably make a thread about that. It's way worse than dexxers and free recalls if you ask me. And stealth. . . I think the balance is fine now but I sure would like to get on my ethy in stealth. I will commiserate with you over the disappointment to be had there. But again this isn't a matter of magery not fitting on a dexxer. This is a matter of all the stuff that's not magery already not fitting on the character. You still need a higher skill cap, not free recalls. Consider this: I bet all the stun-scribes would also really like to have healing. . . and a weapon skill and tactics.

    Now this is a lot of text, I know. I responded in depth because I feel like I asked for it by asking about templates and you guys dropped the gauntlet. So those are my opinions. I'm not really referring to PvP about much of this cause. . . well, nobody was talking about taking archers, parriers and bards into PvP, right? (Or even a character without magery, me thinks.) Being a dexxer involves 5 skills. There's a couple you can add in to augment that dexxer's melee capability but you need 5 and can have 6 and then the 7th is free for magery. . . or the generally less effective skill of your choice. There is an asterisk that deserves to be dropped here, that you can run out of skill points on a pure dexxer by having multiple dexxer related skills that can't be used concurrently. So you got me there, One. . . You can have a pure dexxer that doesn't have room for magery. And you can't have multple bard skills or multiple rogue skills on your dexxer and still have magery. Which is my point! Dexxers, in general, have room for magery. And, in general, people will chose magery because it works. It's convenient. It's viable. . . overpowered, even! And it's a good choice for whatever character you're talking about for many reasons besides recall.

    I'm sorry that magery doesn't fit on your dexxers that are also bards, thieves and stealth poisoners. But that's a choice for you to make. I don't think you're making bad choices per se. They just aren't the choices that I have made cause magery is frikkin awesome. It's better than having a magic weapon or GM magic resist or the fastest horse in Sosaria or hiding and it's just so much more than being able to recall and that's all I really wanted to point out. That AND that it fits on an actual dexxer with one hundred more skill points yet to be alloted. So saying dexxers can't recall cause there aren't skill points is just not the truth. People have something else in mind and are just repeating those words for some reason. I don't think anybody's templates suck or anybody's ideas about changing recall are the worst thing out there but I do think having recall or not is pretty small potatoes compared to the other stuff and it's not really worth complaining about one way or another.

    If you also don't really care but just want to complain or post big walls of text on forums might I suggest some topics like these:
    Magery is overpowered
    Parrying is underpowered
    Archery is underpowered (probably not a new thread, though. . . I mean, c'mon)
    Poisoning is nigh on useless for dexxers, mages and crafters, too
    Something about those gull-dern tamers
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  4. One

    One Well-Known Member
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    Thanks @Godric Greycliff

    Bards can get by without resist, true, but while DPM may be better while in possession of a (potentially very expensive) slayer, mage bards get all of that utility without sacrificing a thing. Provo dexxer, even without resist, is a good template but you're gonna get the crap blasted out of you when taking on a solo mob while a peace dexxer will wipe the floor with solo mobs but die a quick death to groups. Whereas a mage bard can use only one of the above and keep his/her resist, tank on a daemon while casting at a distance, or have both peace and provo (covering both single combat and hordes) if s/he is willing to drop resist as you suggested.

    So I still think it comes down to it's almost always better to play a mage outside of instances as it currently stands. Can't speak to PvP but all signs point to the vast majority of PvPers playing mages. So far a lot of people including yourself have come up with a lot of sometimes pretty good reasons why this recall change should be low priority, but I haven't seen any yet that suggest it would actually make the game worse for anyone in any way other than PKs who like easy (dexxer) targets, usually new players who haven't yet fully accepted how dominant mages are.

    I think you do me wrong here. Yeah I have a lot of ideas up here (including about those topics) but the vast majority of my ideas are at least proposals that I think would make the game more fun, not just wanton complaining. I'm sure I've complained a few times but it's not really my style.

    As for OP magery/taming and nerfed parrying, archery, and poisoning I agree about all of those except maybe poisoning but I'm trying not to make new threads proposing changes these days as the community reaction has been mostly been ambivalent, with negative responses usually outnumbering positive ones. I may comment on other people's ideas but this is actually a five month old thread that keeps getting necro-bumped. I gave up on this when the vote turned against the change, I'm just responding because people continue to attack the idea.

    For now I'd be happy just to see the stuff Chris has already proposed get implemented and maybe some new, easily coded PvM.
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017
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  5. Godric Greycliff

    Godric Greycliff Well-Known Member
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    Dude. . . Straight up! It's always better to have magery than not. PvP is way more skewed. I'm not really trying to talk about PvP cause I'm not seeing comments about it and I'm no expert. I also assume everyone knows you're gonna need magery for that. Maybe it shouldn't be that way but it doesn't seem to be the topic of discussion either. I know the thug thief is sorta PvP and Cheapsuit isn't building a stealther to sneak attack orc mages. I asked for what templates didn't work and you guys listed all the ones that occured to you.

    As it pertains to PvM: Dexxers actually either rock or are basically just the only way to do a lot of our unique PvM content due to some artificial constraint of game mechanics. (Which is fine because those mechanics are absolutely there to make sure tamers aren't just the only logical choice.) You should use dexxers to experience this content as it's the intended purpose. While doing so you should also appreciate that in addition to having something that dexxers excel at, those dexxers have extra skill points to further specialize. Sometimes this comes at the expense of magery. But it's that extra stuff that they're sacrificing magery for.

    Also, pure mages suck more at PvM content than dexxers do at PvP. I'd like for that to be understood. I don't think people would debate that. We just accept that but we don't necessarily have it in mind when we talk about the plight of dexxers. To PvM effectively they need provo or taming, at which point, they're really just bards or tamers. And, obviously, you can put those skills on dexxers, too. . . at the expense of something else. And people are. . . And they can absolutely dominate some of this content with extra, non-dexxer skills and still have magery.

    I just wanted to clear up some of the terminology in case some complete newb came by and erroneously learned that dexxers can't recall. My imagination also conjured up a player worrying about recalling with his battle-miner bard. If that dude was reading this thread thinking he deserves free recalls he should also know that I hate his imaginary ass not just for his entitled attitude but for taking away the livelihood peaceful mules with his primo, dexxer-only game content. My mind has also wandered to Amibs and Lvl 7 T-maps. Places where I've uttered things to myself like, "well, I won't try this with a tamer ever, ever again," "this has GOT to be broken," and "oh well, guess I'll just have to make a provo-dexxer now." So you're probably hearing some of the frustration I've had trying to do things requiring a dexxer without a dexxer and wanting to break something because of it.

    Also, I wasn't taking a shot with my recommendations for further discussion. Beyond those being good things to complain about, I appreciate one's right to complain just for the hell it. I mean. . . I'm kinda complaining about some other people's complaints and enjoying it. I'd be happy do so with another subject.
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  6. One

    One Well-Known Member
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    Yeah again to me it just boils down to, as you said, the fact that most opposition to this and other dexxer buffs boil down to concepts of "entitlement" rather than what (I think) would actually be the most fun.

    In other words:
    Crafter: Crafting
    Pure or tank mage: PvP
    Tamer or bard mage: PvM
    Thief: Stealing (highly limited)
    T-Mapper: T-Maps
    Pure or bard dexxer: AMiBs and other instanced content plus stuff occurring in Trammel or Ocllo

    Thanks for your thoughts though I always appreciate when people are willing to take the time to politely and intelligently express their opinions rather than being reflexive jerks about it.
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017
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  7. wylwrk

    wylwrk Well-Known Member

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    *Morpheus voice*

    What if I told you...


    ... with 200 skill points you could have

    • 2200 hit points
    • 60 AR
    • GM magery (offensive/defensive spell list)
    • GM evaluate intelligence
    • GM meditation
    • GM magic resist
    • GM wrestling
    • GM tactics
    • 65 DPS from a newbied weapon

    ... sacrifice 100 more skill points and you can have 3 to 5 second bandage heals.
    It's so good, they had to specifically code content against its power.


    "Era" was not balanced, especially with the addition of animal taming. Taming in era was not the way it is here. It was objectively weaker.
    Throwing an alternative play style a damn bone isn't going to break the damn server.

    The sad thing though... the really deep down demoralizing thing about this whole thing though really is... should the request for an alternate recall be granted, it'd only make certain tamer templates even more OP.

    ... and ya know what, that just crushes my soul.


    Well crap, my morning's ruined.





    I hate tamers.
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017
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  8. Cyan

    Cyan New Member

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    Why not give this playstyle a boon? It is not like no other class has not recived advantages to their class made possible.

    I think it would be a small price to pay to have classes without magery the ability to cast recall. That would open up a whole new field of gameplay with a wider and different arrangement of skills put together. As it is if you wanna start a new character the recipe for success is always to pick magery at skill 50 and then whatever other skill that suits your character.

    I think this would spice things up when you go out hunting seeing other ways to deal with monsters without having to implement any new skills.

    How this should be implemented can be done in so many ways. The one with dexxers ability to use runebooks is a good idea.

    Perhaps tithing at some shrine to travel.

    Perhaps we should use a system were a dexxer must sacrefice hitpoints and mana to be able to recall from a scroll / book and everytime they use it costs 22 hitpoints and 22 mana to be able to recall.

    We could maybe use stones like felluca stones that perhaps scribes can make and mages can imbue (with recall) that is a one time use thing and maybe that to cost hitpoints to use aswell as mana.

    I am also hoping that IF anything would give non magery templates the ability to recall it will not only be for the richest but relativly new character can also benifit from this.

    But if changes on this server needs to win a vote to get implemented nothing will happen becouse i dont think the dexxer community is large enough. Why would it be?

    So a boon to a templete that back in the day was never given any love. We could do it from the greatness of our hearts, to make the server more diversified or maybe to attract new players to experiance something that OSI never managed to fix.
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  9. Cheapsuit

    Cheapsuit Active Member
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    My list of some type of changes that needs to be priority, and in order of priority with my personal suggestion (everyone has an asshole) "opinion".

    1. Mindblast - Just lower it's damage.
    2. Dexxer hit chance - needs buffing
    3. Poison - I dunno just do something
    4. Dexxer weapons - Easier to acquire runic weapons
    5. Recall - easier to recall from runebooks without magery
    6. Ehty mounts - Disable the reveal from hidden when mounti ng a ethy
    7. Viable weapon use in pvp - as of now, the only choice that can compete is a LJ, make all weapon skills viable in pvp
    8. Dexxer pvp Dmg - Needs buffing
    9. Reactive Armor Bug - Are you kidding me??!!?? As if Mages need more power, Wow. (This should probably be #2)
    10. AFK check on fishing - Useless IMHO and I know I don't have much support on this, but it still frustrates me trying to see 3 accounts on small screen.
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  10. Zim

    Zim Active Member

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    ^^^^^
    OMG so much YES on this one. This is really the only way to make stealth toons somewhat viable.
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  11. Cheapsuit

    Cheapsuit Active Member
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    Now that the votes are dead even, does this get a look? Or does it not matter?
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  12. One

    One Well-Known Member
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    Looks like the pro-Recall camp has pulled ahead again, although the boss understandably has other priorities.

    Note: The inability of non-mage dexxers to consistently recall is a decent pick for the main reason I never tried using a dexxer to hunt in the overworld during the Xmas event. If there were improved recall I would almost certainly put parrying on my lumberjack.

    ...However I'm still not carrying any weapons that cost over 15k.
  13. Anarchy

    Anarchy Active Member
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    Make recall easier for dexxers: Yes!

    It's not the battle thing or flee from battle thing - please, wtf is this argument against? Seriously? "Force" people to magery just because they want to flee from battle? Every mage could! Most tamers could! (and training back their pets, well, that is NOT like loosing an unique weapon)

    It's just annoying that I have to partly try it 10 times until the recall finally is successfully. Often first time, but still, sometimes it just wont work!

    So I would vote for:
    Recall from runebook = 100% success
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
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