Its possible at some point daemons required less than 5 control slots, however on OSI once they implemented limited stables and control slots they applied a max of 5 control slots, the 8 we have here on Renaissance is a deviation from known mechanics. Additionally, the overall strength & toughness of the summoned daemons on Renaissance are of the same level as those of normally spawning daemons found throughout the world, whereas on OSI, the daemons summoned by magery were "lesser daemons", which were significantly weaker in both magic & melee in comparison to than their brethren. However, you're welcome to make a case to why they should require less control slots.
The Case for Two Daemons: 1. The Bard or Mage vs Tamer situation: Horse, Elemental, Daemon vs Nightmare, WW, WW The damage output of the two classes is vastly different. The reward for GM taming is great, but Magery is also costly and requires support skills. 2. Bladespirits vs Any other summon I would like to see the amount of Bladespirits cast versus any other summon spell combined. I was intrigued by the idea of GM'ing Magery so that I could have access to higher level summons. The way this works now, those spells are irrelevant compared to Blade Spirits. 3. Daemons stronger than OSI I feel like this argument is a bit stretched. Monsters here spam Dispel and Greater Heal. Even with two Daemons, I would no where near compete with Nightmare, WW, WW "all guard me" in the Elder Gazer room. - With the UOR control limit raised to 8 so that Tamers can have Nightmare, WW, WW... is my request for Horse, Daemon, Daemon so far off base? In fact, when put like that.. It sort of feels like a joke. Given current Dispel rates, I would really only be able to use these Daemons against Arctic Ogre Lords. The goal here is not to raise the power level of my class, I just enjoying summoning two of these bad boys instead of spamming a 5th circle spell called Bladespirits. Maybe the issue is that Bladespirits are too powerful? Or maybe these should be one at a time only? I am requesting this change to add more relevancy to higher level spells. Otherwise, my Bard might as well cap magery at 80.1
I would have to agree, with the rate at which mobs dispel/heal two daemons would not be out of the question. If all eighth level summons were reduced to 3-4 slots it would prove to be a significant improvement to regular bard/mage PvM while tamers would be able to retain their PvM superiority. Assuming that this does go through, I would hope you consider a restriction during instanced events (Xmas, Halloween, aMiBs etc) where the summons are limited to what they are now. Sidenote: I did a quick bit of testing, my summons seemed to have about 5-10~ less wrestling points than an average daemon, could just be random chance though.
Mage: horse + daemon + daemon seems fair when compared to; Tamer: mare + ww + ww Hell even as a melee(archery) based player I roam around with a daemon to help hunt...this ofcourse is with 50int and GM medi, being able to get a second daemon up before my first one dies or the timer runs out would help with having to back off and recast before re-engaging Anywho just my two cents on the topic
I agree! This all sounds pretty solid to me. Here are a few things that I like about the presented ideas: 1) This is not a "waah, give me a buff cause I don't know how to play properly". It's a request to remedy a problem that, given the current mechanics, can literally not be "played around". We all know that UO has a few quirks here and there and that they can be overcome/avoided by simply learning how to play better, but this is not one of them. No amount of skill will allow you to maneuver the current allowable Magery summons in such a way that would parallel the "mare + ww + ww" trio. 2) I feel as though this would go a long way in the name of adding viability to the Mage arch-type. I agree with the idea that every arch-type should not feel entitled to being able to overcome any obstacle the game has to offer, but I feel like every arch-type does need to feel viable and playable within the scope of their ability. Hm. Re-reading this one and not sure if it makes sense. Oh well, on to 3! 3) I can't imagine lowering the controls slots required my daemons to allow for two of them would cause anyone to be over-powered. In fact, I would say that horse + daemon + daemons STILL is laughable compared to mare + ww + ww. But that's ok, because Tamers are awesome and that's a fact that we all have to accept. However, what horse + daemon + daemon does accomplish is giving PvM'ers a reason to GM Magery and a way to make a few more hunting spots more accessible to those without dragons in tow. 4) No one's play style takes a hit because of this. Folks will be able to continue use the "Spam Blade Spirits until they die" strategy if they so desire. In fact, this strategy may still be more viable that two daemons Anyway, just a few thoughts!
Aye, agreed with Gideon. There's a reason PvM templates go like Warrior>Mage>Bard>Tamer, because the difficulty to train follows the same scale. Things seem way off in today's game because of how easy Razor and experience has made the training process. Any of those templates can literally be crafted and 7x GM in under a week if you have the time/resources available. I'm much more in favor of reducing control slots across the board and allowing an extra bonding slot. This will bring tamers a bit down from their presently OP level and force a bit more teamwork in the big events/boss spawns. Yes, I know, I'm an asshole for thinking we should require teamwork for certain things....in an MMO.
Gideon/Blaise you are assuming that adding an additional Daemon would raise the power level of a Mage to that of a Tamer. I dare you guys to go to Elder Gazers together, each summon a Daemon and camp the spawn. Even if a pure mage could summon two Daemons, what happens? You could only use them against a noncaster mob. I cannot agree that Blaise's chart (Warrior>Mage>Bard>Tamer) would change if the 2nd Daemon was added. So if you do not like the idea of lowering Daemons, then perhaps the raising of Blade Spirits? The power level of 5-6 Bladespirits vs 2 Dragons is an interesting assessment. What is the DPS of max blade spirits control slots vs 3 tames? Blaise has a great point. Razor and multiple accounts make any template just a matter of time/money. Nothing was/is difficult for me. It doesn't take a lot to GM anything! By this token, I think it dismisses the argument of "taming is hard, they deserve it". I am pushing for multiple viable PvM templates. This is History Perfected, after all. This post is not to rail against Tamers, I am macroing one right now.. If we are going to craft a server full of unique experiences and fix the wrongs of OSI, then let's do it! There are many non-era accurate things. Fishing aMIB is a great example. This added flavor to game that was much needed. What if there were cooking BODs? I'm all for it. If you don't want to sometimes take out your Mage and summon some daemons and beat down, then just sit in EG with your Dragons. I for one, would like the freedom to be able to do both.
One might say that the number of daemons one can summon is irrelevant. The more I think about it, the more I think that spamming blade spirits > even 3 or 4 daemons.
Blade spirits & Energy vortexes will always be far more efficient in PvM scenarios, simply because they have the ability to inflict greater & deadly poison from melee hits. That being said, I can look into the possibilities of modifying the follower requirements &/or the dispel difficulties for the various types of summons. Summoned daemons are by far the most difficult to dispel, however I suspect that this is not as difficult as it would seem in regards to the coded difficulty, when considering the elevated mana-pools most magical creatures have.
This is only slightly related, but it would be nice to see summons in general have higher resistances to dispel. It's annoying to cast an energy vortex and have it dispelled by a pixie or something that would die in one EB. I know demons have higher dispel resistance here and are more bulky in general, but even they get zapped pretty quickly. Harder to dispel summons would make it easier for bards and mages to dispose of boss mobs when they spawn. They've kind of reached a point where they're more of an annoyance than something you'd want to spawn, especially in the case of the larger boss mobs like the purveyor of darkness. They dispel summons too easily for that to be really effective, you can't bard stuff onto them, dexers can't kill them, and now that pet damage has been nerfed vs boss mobs even tamers have trouble removing them. Oh and as for two demons, why not make them take up four control slots? That way a person can have two demons if they really want, but they have to give up a mount for it.
That solution sounds interesting. I'm just pushing for more archetypes to experience content. I think there should be multi roads to the same end result. Each with Pros and Cons. If I am barding and a boss spawns, I have to call Neo to bring his Dragons to clear it for me. My normal boss method is double poison field to keep them from dispelling my 10 blade spirits. But it's faster to just call Neo and he wants the drops. Quite different than just showing up with two dragons and keeping them healed. I think you get a lot for your 300 points. This isn't Siege Perilous. You can run your own Mage if you want. Magery has a variety of uses but to say it is getting enough love is wrong IMHO. You must pair it with taming or barding. Look at all the record holders for mob kills. I'm no trying to fight about it, I love a good debate. Lets face it, with 15 char spots we can all have every template under the sun. I could double box arctics and get two daemons if I really wanted. I think you should get on the right character for the right hunt, but I hate that some templates just cap out at a certain level. I hate that if you are a pure Mage there is only 1-2 places in the world where you can make decent money with out getting your guys dispelled. I just wanna play several archetypes and keep things fresh.
I agree with Gideon. There's lots of places for a mage to be successful. Also, if you're having trouble with a boss, let me know, I'll take my BARD (who I have killed multiple magical bosses with), and I'll take care of it. It is absolutely false that you need a tamer to succeed in PvM. Yes, they make money fast, but so can a bard. It just isn't as easy as with a tamer. But who wants to play in easy mode anyway, right?
I guess we are just in an agree to disagree situation. I agree with Blaise's original diagram for the order in which PvM classes are ranked and think that it should be that way. I just wish that all archetypes had strengths and weaknesses against all tier of monster. Rather than letting warriors cap out at liches, mages cap out at ogre lords, bard cap out at x, and tamers can handle anything. Maybe it is impossible to balance the game in a way where a warrior can kill a diseased blood elemental. I was in Khaldun with Goldensnatch this weekend. He was able to use his dragon on the Ancient Liches, and I was reduced to spamming flame blast. Maybe the bard difficulty should be 0, Maybe there should be certain areas that only certain archetypes can handle. I still struggle to see how Tamer should be allowed to do X when it costs 300 points.. What about a place that warriors dominate? They require 300 skill points minimum as well! I feel like I have gotten a little off topic, I love you guys and I love it here. Maybe it is just a leftover dream from WOW. My argument isn't coming from jealousy. Anyone can Razor a Tamer.. I just know that when I go the the same dungeons for the 1000th time since the late 90s... I would like a different experience or to try out new templates.
I think that peace dexers would be a bit more viable here (as viable as mage bards) if mobs did not break peace so often at low health
