Without the influences of Trammel: A Discussion about Risk within UO:R

I say nae on nerfing pet damage.
I will always hold true that nerfing=bad.
Upping the skill loss penalty upon rez is certainly a great compromise to the situation and not something I would at all consider a nerf. No matter what may be added/changed/nerfed there will continue to be people complaining about it.

nerfing=bad though, there must be other ways.

I will say that, if era accuracy were important, I easily concede UO:R was the age of tamers and they were then as they are now (although from what I recall, once bonding was introduced you were down to a mare and a dragon only because of follower slots.)

But I don't see why they have to be so strong. Even at half their current damage and tanking power they'd still be the strongest template out there and people would triple box them. Even with 20% or 30% less stats/skills they'd still be the strongest pve and pvp template hands down. A tamer that can instantly do 60-70 damage with pets alone would still certainly threaten reds - although this is not a logical defense. This isn't about reds and blues. Tamers are not by definition blue and the things they combat are not by definition murderers.

But I suppose I know these things won't change. Players and staff are either too myopic or too in-denial to make changes. And career tamers are often chicken littles prone to tantrums. So I've embraced this now emerged meta and acknowledge that the competitive players of 2015 and 2016 on this server will be tamers triple boxing with thoughtfully designed macros. But I do want to make it clear that it doesn't have to be this way. An agreeable balance is possible, especially if staff didn't bend to overly-dramatic players that would claim a small adjustment would make tamers pointless and at the mercy of rapists.

I fixed this for you Gid. I love ya, but you got it wrong. You forgot to apply the 'Optional' tag to all of the gear for Mages, Tamers, & Bards and you forgot to consider the maximum GPH (gold per hour)

Upon death, PVM characters typically risk the following to being lost:

Mages:
Armor $1600 (OPTIONAL, WHO are these armored mages?)
Regs $1400 (if you're going prepared for PvP sure, otherwise lets put this closer to $500 of 'easily' obtainable gear)
Possibly Potions
Total: Less than 1k gold (if you're not recalling as often as you should, i'd say this should be more like 600-800 gold if you're a dope)
Not Lootable: Spellbook
GPH: Maybe 20-30k if you push it?

Tamers:
Armor $1600 (HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA)
Regs $1400 (again maybe $500?)
Bandages $200 (true)
Possibly Potions
Total: Less than 1k gold (true, since you have the safety net of your pets you can amass 5-6k before recalling to bank, NOT AN OPTION FOR DEXXERS)
Not Lootable: Spellbook
Killable for Skill Loss: Pets (HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA *wipes tear* HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA)
GPH: 60k+ per hour if you push it
If a pk strikes, you might be set back 10k, you still walk away with 50k and ZERO gear loss (dragons are CHEAP, sure you lost your prize ones but you can get two second rate cannons that will put you right back in to 60k+ per hour again)


Bards:
Armor $1600 (huh? still wearing armor? the point of a bard is to divert all damage... sure if you're going to be prepared for PvP, but this is OPTIONAL)
Regs $1400 (HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA)
GM Instrument $400 (True)
Possibly Slayer Instrument (True, with high availability and more easily replaced)
Possibly Potions
Total: Less than 1k gold (5k to 14k if using a Slayer) (true)
Not Lootable: Spellbook
GPH: 40-50k if you push it?
If a PK strikes, same as tamer, only it takes 400 gold and you're back into it.


Dexer:
Armor $1600 (MANDITORY! YOU CANNOT GO OUT WITHOUT ARMOR. YOU HAVE TO WEAR THIS. YOU CANNOT TAKE ON MONSTERS WITHOUT IT)
Regs $1400 (??? c'mon maybe $500)
Bandages $200 (true)
Power or Vanquishing Weapon $1,500 to $10,000 gold (MANDITORY. YOU CANNOT EXCEL WITHOUT A HIGH END WEAPON)
Possibly Runic Weapon
Possibly Slayer Weapon
Possibly Potions
Total: Less than 5k gold MINIMUM up to a million gold. WITH LITTLE chance to find a comparable weapon to replace the one you lost. Risk ~1 million gold to make maybe 2k?.. hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Nope, I'm only taking my slayers to the holiday events. Even without the slayers, there is a manditory risk of at least 5k anytime a dexxer goes out. Manditory, you have no option. You cannot even function without gear.
Not Lootable: Spellbook
GPH: Maybe 10-15k if you push it?
If a PK strikes, and you haven't previously used your tamer/mage/bard alt to subsidize your dexxer lifestyle then you're going to be going down to the lower tier of monsters to save up enough to get another slayer for ... MORE THAN 15k.


There's a bit more imbalance than your original estimates because you forgot to include the 'OPTIONAL' flag. I see a great disparity between dexxers and other classes. I don't see any reason to increase the GPH for dexxers. I see them as a social class. you can make 60k per hour if you have 4-5 working together, but alone? no. I just think there should be more places that dexxers can go use their weapons without mandating that they have a tamer/bard/mage alt in order to subsidize their playstyle.

Now, I don't support hasty changes, but c'mon you basically said that Tamers and Dexxer risk the SAME amount with the only difference being if a dexxer takes out a slayer? C'mon.


Also, I love you man.

.

Gideon, in case you haven't left completely yet.

Optional: available to be chosen but not obligatory

Can you make 60k per hour as a tamer with no armor? Answer: Yes (if pks come, maybe that is 40-50k). Optional. Net gain still = 40k +

Can you make ANY gold at all on a dexxer with no armor? Answer: No. i.e. obligatory, not optional. If pk's roll you or you get an unlucky pvm spell combo you're out gear that is not optional.

What I think that should be done to make things a bit more fair:

1 - increase the rate of slayers drops and include em in higher tier treasures!

2 - create a non-medeable armour with the same ar as plate, but without dex loss. Intead of removing dex, make it lower vet skill or even taming skill (wich will reduce the chance of controling a pet). This way, pure melee characters will have a better survivability, without having to change anything on tamers! Or, instead of making it higher ar, keep it on the same lvl as a chain set (still reducing taming or vet or both skills and being non-medeable), but increasing life recovery rate! Tjis way, instead of tanking damage with armour, the warrior would have a better survivabillity on having a greater life regen! I tought of that because AR only holds physical attacks, while you still need high resist skill, and actually RESIST the spell to spell damage to be reduced! Having greater life regen would make tanking melee AND spell damage easier when you get a combo from a 30+ melee attack + mindblast + fs. Or, even better, instead of giving out life regen on this kind of armor, give out this regen with the anatomy or the healling skill!

3 - increase parrying effectiveness! This way, a pure warrior using the armor described on item 2, a 1 hand slayer weapon and a good parry damage absorption shield will be AS tanky as a tamer using pets to do it's duties, and as deadly as 2 dragons with full life using fire breath!

For mages... regs are almost costless, and everyone uses the newbied spellbooks! With less than 20k you can store up huge amounts of reagents, and most mages are part of the mages guild, wich reduces costs when buying reagents!

For bards... most bards are either mages or dexxers. The main problem on a bard is the high dificulty on barding some stuff (like bosses) even with a slayer instrument. While a warrior will STILL dish out the same bonus damage from a slayer weapon on a boss, and a tamer will still tank and give out high damage using its pets, a bard will fail a LOT trying to bard some things. Only way to increase effectiveness is either increasing slayer instruments effectiveness or reducing most mobs barding dificulty!

Let's say there's a Obsidian Gargoyle in a place. A tamer can solo it without any problems. A well prepared mage can do the same. A pure warrior using the above ideas would be able to solo it using some strategy. A bard will just watch, as its barding difficulty is 151 using a SLAYER instrument. If I'm not wrong, if the barding dificulty is 25 points higher than your skill, your chances are 0 on barding the creature. You still get 5% chance from discordance, and I think 10% chance from provocation, but if you just bard the mob because of this 5 - 10% chance, the effects will not last the same as if you had succeded with your own skill, and still it's a really small chance!

Well rest easy, we both know these things aren't likely to change.

But I think I'm being entirely reasonable - right now 2 drags and a mare are likely to do ~110 damage with firebreath (which is likely by design as long as they have been in combat within two minutes and have full-ish health.) Or they run a good chance of casting a few high damage spells or some combination of those things. I think this is too high to be reasonable burst damage for an instant. Especially unmitigatable damage. I would hardly call 20-30% less than that unplayable garbage - in fact I'm certain it would still be the ultimate template and would only be challenged in dps by slayer weapons - and still not be touched by anyone in efficiency, safety, tanking ability.

Because Chris has tried to create a Perfected world for an imperfect audience. If tamers were nerfed it'd take all of 2 1/2 seconds before something else became the new flash point.

This shard would be less Trammel if you people played the game half as much as you chat in IRC and bicker on the forums.

I see no risk on the forums or IRC. Start having these conversations at Britain Bank so I can bomb you.

Unfortunately PFR, this is the best I can do while "working" during the day... Besides, isn't open discussion a hallmark of a civilized and enlightened society?

From my perspective, risk and loss is an integral part of the UO experience. From the moment you step out of your home or leave the protection of town guards, you face the possibility of losing the tools of your trade. A miner might lose their pickaxe, a warrior their sword, or a bard their instrument. I'm looking to understand why the admins chose taming of all the skills to bestow the ability to not lose their pets/tools. From some perspectives, pets could be viewed as the most rewarding tool. Not many in UO get to walk out of a situation DEAD with their tools in tow.

If risk and loss is an integral part of your UO experience, don't bond your pets. Make the game what you want, its a sandbox.

For example: I don't see naturalists out there crying that all macros should be illegal, they just decide to not personally use them and enjoy their play time as they see fit.

I know most dont share my philosophy, but I view risk on UO:R as a choice.
You can choose to farm MAX Gold per hour with a tamer at little risk and with little challenge. You may also choose a less efficient gold per hour method that has much greater risk and greater challenge. No one is forcing anyone to play a specific way.

I will support 2 fixes that would make game play better for everyone:

• Increase the %success rate of slayer instruments
• Make shields/parry more useful

Keza I literally had you mind when I wrote my post. I even had an @Keza in it but erased it.

When you lose your tools, swords/armor/picks/pets, you must replace them. That creates a market. A market creates a economy. A economy creates player interaction. Player interaction creates a living, breathing, ever changing, terrifying yet beautiful world to play.

I say, (and always have, this is the reason I love UO) NOTHING should be no drop on death, unless a cbd is used on vanity clothing. Not even a spell book should be blessed. The prices on spellbook replacements would drop until the market balanced.

Very few items should be ?lockdownable? in your house. And mainly if its a public guild house. IE- Runebooks.

Pets should die and stay dead, even my beloved pure mare. The players who play UO play UO cause it is UO. We like danger, we like the rush, and we also thrive on regearing.

However, most players hoard high end gear and never never use it. Most have 50-100 back up sets of GM or better gear. Yet, most servers are devoloped in such ways as to allow very little use in these collected items.

Give us a reason to use our dusty pixles, a reason to be scared of Hyloth, a reason to use boats as main travel to distant lands,(no recalls), a reason to choose our allies with care.

I say this for love of the game, I also want to thank Chris for his love and dedication to the game. A thank you for the free UO that he provides. I do not donate money to the shard but I do advertise when applicable.

El Horno's post gives me the impression that some would rather leave my question unanswered. In this thread, I don't think I've even directly asked for a resolution to the issue or offered a solution. I am looking to better understand why certain mechanics have been implemented and what may lie in the future for the shard as a whole.

I think we should take the exit that Keza and The Oven have presented here. The primary basis of the "imbalance" argument I think rests on the potential for gold/mad lewtz per hour.

If your goal in UO is for maximum gold per hour via solo farming , then taming is your ticket.

What I do like us to consider though is that the warrior template is usually the most basic template for completely new UO players and has the highest learning curve for tolerating loss in UO. I think we need to educate that it is riskier for warriors. For persons who have low tolerance for loss then they should make a bard or tamer instead.

You're looking for a pre-UOR, pre-T2A era shard. Pretty much everything but a player's spellbook was lootable at launch. Even your newbie gold wasn't safe. There was no bank box, so you had to carry everything you owned or risk buying a house and holding the key in your backpack while playing the game. You could literally lose it all.

UOR is not about UO on hardmode.

I think this was a really useless sentiment for a guy on his daily posting spree from an alt forum account. I play the game plenty. I'm playing it now. And I'm the least trammel person on the server. This does not preclude me from having a conversation about the server on the forums at the same time.

If you don't like the discussion at hand and don't think it's worth participating in - then don't. There are surely 25 threads going on at any time that I don't have time/interest in and I don't show up there to call it dumb bickering and then throw my two cents in anyways.

Yes but training taming to a newbie is going to be overloading. I had to stop at 82.0 because I can't have this anymore. I'm on a break now.

It does sounds about good though, except the bank box bit.

Are you calling me an ALT or did I miss a reference?