Template Strengths Relative to Each Other

Proposed Problem: some character templates (read: Tamers) are better at some things than other character templates are.

Example solutions:
1: Weaken the Tames slight by capping their skills
2: Increase the supply of slayer weapons
3: Continue to add dexer optimized content

I think reducing control slots from 8 to 5 is another popular potential solution floated around.

My own .02 is that this is a non-issue, as there is plenty of content on this shard for all character types. And the "rewards" for various character types fluctuate very well. Yes a tamer is probably the most universally useful, but it is not at all useful at some events, and less useful at others than dexers, bards, thieves, etc.

I think when people focus on tamers being overpowered, it's because they're entirely focused on farming. There is ALWAYS going to be one template that is better than others at making gold, even if it's by a small amount, so if you're purely focused on making the most GP-per-hour that you can, you'll naturally want to just use that character type.

Thankfully I think the GP-per-hour goal is something that most players outgrow after a few months on the shard, and become more interested in novel experiences and trying new, fun challenges. And in those cases, most often a tamer is far from the best choice.

In my experience, I found the following character types to be the most effective in a power-gamer sense for these situations:
GP-per-hour farming: disco tamer
Pirate Ancient MIB challenge: provo-dexer
Halloween overworld event: stealth/disarm thief
Halloween instanced event: lumberjack dexer
Christmas overworld event: pure bard
Christmas instanced event: provo-tamer
Easter overworld event: tracker mage
CTF: scribe-heal mage
Level 6 Treasure Maps: pure bard
Harrower events: archer

...and I found this template to be the most enjoyable, even though it specifically wasn't the most profitable on a strict GP-per-hour sense:
GP-per-hour farming: crafter (BODs), peace dexer, pack taming
Pirate Ancient MIB challenge: stealth lockpicker, thief
Christmas instanced event: provo-dexer
CTF: tank mage

That's a LOT of different characters there. And I think people cry that tamers are most powerful because they're so focused on day to day farming. If your entire focus on playing was CTF, you'd say the stun mage or scrib mage is OP and needs a nerf.

I think my beef with tamers is more along the lines of my dislike for the pk/bounty system in that it does not have any impact at all as there is no real risk. I would argue that even Stat loss wouldn't address this.

RRG guild actually just introduced an artificial risk system that I'm interested in watching. In order for their members to enter their prestigious status of Eminent Watch you have to go 100 kills in a row without being killed. This solves the pk issue to me more than anything. Now I have a reason to want to kill them at all.

I've had no interest in hunting reds because I know it does not have any equal risk. Reds play for 2 main reasons: 1 for sport 2 to take your stuff. These are both valid reasons, but I point them out because if you fight reds there is no negative risk factor.

If you're a good fight then they are rewarded with a great battle (which they were looking for) and if you take their stuff they just don't care because they have 50 replacement sets ready to go.

Ugh.

Tl;Dr
Any class that has no risk irks me. You can say losing pet stats is a risk but I contest that. The only true risk is that which is permanent.

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Non-issue. Trying to make UO balanced between templates is such a futile effort considering the variety of templates available.

Dalavar and El Horno have hit the nail on the head.

My vote would be against changing the number of control slots or imposing a skill cap on dragons on the general theory that nerfing several years into a shard's launch is almost always a bad idea.

I would prefer to see a focus on making new content that is either exclusive to non-tamers or otherwise favors other templates. In my view that creates a win/win situation: existing tamers can use their existing dragons in the same way they always have on the same content; at the same time, players that enjoy or would prefer to play non-tamers are rewarded as well.

People say that nerfing content is bad for the shard but what about the opposite? Does anyone think it might also be bad for the shard to keep adding in content in an attempt to balance something that one might consider a mistake in the first place? It's like digging a bigger hole to get out of the smaller one.

As I stated in other post about this same discussion: problem is NOT with a template, it's withing a small set of skills: animal lore, animal taming and veterinary. This is a skill set that can be combined with lots of other skills freely. But those 3 skills, with everything for them on the shard, are kind of overpowered in comparission of what's provided for the other skills! Actually, you can make a cooking-begger-camper-detective tamer (taming/animal lore/vet/begging/camping/cooking/forensic eval) and be better at most of the pvm than any other template that does not includes taming!

And, one point to add: ppl talk about the gold per hour, but the main problem is NOT the gold per hour! Is the platinum per hour!
As a tamer, you can solo creatures with a really better chance on plat than those a non-tamer can face!

Making gold is just a "plus", and you can do a good gold/hour with any template knowing how and where to hunt... problem is you can't compete on platinum against tamers! A player using 3 clients to play 3 tamers can even do some champion spawns solo with almost no difficulty. Try the same using 3 dexxers, or 1 bard, 1 dexxer and 1 mage!

Fuinacius, you should make your platinum per hour point in the Inflation thread. I'd like to respond to it but I don't want to make Dalavar cry by arguing about inflation in this thread.

No vitriol here when I ask,

Why is this a problem? Who said things should be balanced?
Has anyone come forward and made a case for an expectation of equality when compared to those in a similar role?
(side note: I do not have a tamer, I'd rather spork my eyes out)

I think that's an argument that must be hashed out before discussing solutions.

Because if something is disproportionately the strongest option in a majority of scenarios (ie pve and pvp) it marginalizes the other options and the eventual trend is for only that option to be used by competitive players. So the question you are asking is - should this server be a server where only tamers are a competitive choice?

In my opinion, no. I would like to see a server with as much template variety as is feasible. Ultima Online is not just about tamers.

To ask for an equal counter is a huge undertaking. It's been my experience that regarding MMO's, the player base finds optimal no matter how "balanced" the game thinks it is.

I think balance is a worthwhile goal that while never actually accomplished, should be constantly strived for.


I suppose if the collective is looking to have the gap narrowed, that might be feasible. : shrug :
Of course, all of this can be argued and frankly this isn't a battlefield I want to bleed on. /eject

I suppose this makes an argument for fixing the begging skill equally worthwhile? #smarmygit

Agreed

Agree'd it can never be perfectly balanced, as it stands its very balanced how certain classes dominate certain situations as Dalavar said:

The only issue I have with tamers is their ability to one shot people.
I'm in favor of adjusting fireball damage downward, but buffing the impact of pet skills on melee/spell damage to compensate so they won't lose dps.

I partially agree with the OP firebreath one-shotting but it's hard for me to feel bad for PKs getting one-shotted when despite multiple people casting, they literally "one-shot" players all the time in dungeons. I would not be dismayed if firebreath were toned down though to make tamers actually have to put up a difficult fight instead of all kill/gate/all follow.

The GPH is not a concern or shouldn't be. It's the loss on death that is the only imbalance I see as worth adjusting. Either allow for bonded slayers (single at a time, takes 7 control slots) or make them drop as frequently as anything else to they aren't like losing half a castle when you die.

As a warrior, I should NEED a tamer around to handle certain monsters. As a tamer, you should NEED a warrior around to handle 'lesser' mobs at the big spawns that would otherwise fuck with the tamer. As both of these templates, having some bards around to handle larger groups of monsters is beneficial to all.

The only imbalance is loss on death. If dragons still died and held value of a half a mil, this wouldn't even be a topic (ie: it never was before infinite bonding).

Template balance is a slippery slope, especially at this point in time. I agree that there needs to be a degree of balance here but that would require a few things to happen.

1) Tamers should be limited to 5 slots not 8 and limit the number of bonding slots.
2) Skill loss should be 10% upon pet death, training them up is too easy currently.
3) Slayers should be more readily available, a typical dexxer should not have to come up with a million gold to get one.
4) Mind Blast was nerfed on OSI for a reason, a fifth circle spell should not have the universal impact on gameplay that it does here as it forces everyone on the server to play with balanced stats if they have even the slightest notion of surviving a PvP encounter. This is too OP for a fifth circle spell IMO.
5) Stat for reds is a non-issue here and some system should be in-place to reward people for actually spending the time hunting them down and killing them, turning in a head for some piddly amount of gold is a joke.

There is more to be sure but to list them would take up too much time and energy that I'm not willing to expend at this time.

While I've managed to deal with the MB balance effect, I do agree that it's stupid the way it works. It's not Person Blast, thus it should only be Int vs Int, at a factor that peaks at reasonable damage for the circle.

It is simply a PITA to have to play with a certain stat setup because of one f%^&in spell, I would be a little more understanding if it was bumped up to maybe 7th circle but then the gimps that rely on it like a crutch would cry, so probability of a nerf is likely 0%.