Request for Comment - Champion System

I didn't read this thread, so this may have been mentioned... but here are my 2 golds worth..


1: Make reward based on raw damage output

2a: Make Tamer damage count as 25% of normal player damage. IE: If a Tamer does 1,000 damage, and a Scribe/Stun mage does 250 damage... they both get the SAME amount of 'points' to go towards their reward. This way people without a tamer have a chance as well. Do the same with Summoned Pets and EV's.... their damage is not worth as much as a normal players damage.


-Or-

2b: Have tentacles immune to fire breath and or dragon melee etc etc... Or make them very weak to energy (EB's) etc or melee weapons.


Point being, do not let tamers rule the day. Make it so other classes have a reason to come and make a difference.

Because it would work both ways. If stat loss was removed for the dungeon the harrower was in, it gives the group that spawned it a chance to actually attempt to defend their spawn instead of just having to get fucked if someone finds it and makes the once private champ public via irc.

You can't use tames or summons on the tentacles or eb, exp etc because they reflect the spells. You use meteor swarm to kill the tentacles. Dexxers are just SOL on the killing tentacles phase.

No, it works one way. It benefits murderers who want to kill lots of blues at a harrower event. There should be a hefty consequence for people who murder blues and a hefty risk for people who want to do it so much they go into stat loss. The people who started (and have a significant head-start in damage) and want to control the spawn should pay the price for murdering blues. The people who want to raid the spawn and kill the people who started it should pay the price for murdering blues.

The consequence of this would be to remove the risk for murderers who kill lots of blues and create a risk-free murdering ground for people who have deep stat reds. You can currently do exactly what you want to do under the proposed change, you just want to do it with far less risk.

Champ spawns and harrowers were designed for a no stat loss system. EA intended for players to have to defend the harrower's reward vs invading blues - and therefore they suspended short term counts and allowed stat-loss reds to res without taking stat if they died in a dungeon during this era. And a few months later stat loss was removed altogether.


The reason this is worth discussing now is not so that evil pk rapists can get rid of stat loss and ruin the server. It's so that we can acknowledge as a server that at champ spawns and harrowers a blue can be the enemy and there needs to be tools to deal with them

Here's a very real example that happened- I watch PwN do an Oaks spawn casually on a naked scout. When the boss is about to spawn I appear with friends and we hit the boss and get the skull. PwN was powerless to do anything about it. They couldn't risk stat loss reds vs our tamers.



What position were we in before with harrowers? You either summon it publicly and invite everyone or you summon it privately and just hope people didn't show up. If they did you just let them hit the boss because you couldn't realistically stop them. Atleast you were still likely to get the same reward either way.


What position will we be in now? Players will ghost or blue scout the star room constantly. If they show up you still can't stop them and now they're reducing the amount of platinum you are going to get.

Moving on into AOS!!!! My favorite era.. 4 fc 50 sdi pub 70!! Let's do this!!

We can't get rid of stat loss, even though it is an idea.

The cornerstone of your argument is that innocents exist and should be protected.

That's true in Occlo. Is it true in this context? Participants in these kinds of events will be well to do tamers who want plat, and people on blues showing up to fuck with them/steal there plat. There are no helpless newbies to be protected here - those are in occlo - not out doing end game high risk activities.

I know that under the current system, I will not show up to harrowers on a red. Stat loss + tamers that can one shot you = reds not being viable at all. I will, however, show up on a blue and steal plat and dunk spawners as hard as I can, and there are a few groups that can attest to how effective TT is at disrupting spawns without using reds. The system encourages this.
It's not even accurate to say that I am advocating the removal of statloss for reds at harrowers - I am simply pointing out the fact that this system encourages types of behaviors that Telamon may not be trying to encourage. Heavy scouting, extremely risk averse behavior on the part of spawners, spawners having to deal with blues disrupting their activities - all of these things will come with the new system.

I also disagree with your assertion that removal of stat at harrowers would create easy street for reds. I don't know if you've ever attacked a spawning guild with reds, but I have. Make no mistake - it's high risk for reds. With the way fireballs cycle right now, attacking groups of tamers on a red is extremely risky. The advantage will still lie with the spawners and they will still be able to defend their spawns, the only difference is that the reds won't have to macro for a week after the fail.

More importantly, the spawning guilds will be able to run reds of their own and defend their claims from people like me who will show up on blues and steal their shit and noto PK them. The way this system seems to currently be looking, it very much encourages noto PKing. I don't have a problem with that, noto PKing is one of the things that Mes and I excel at, but it's going to create a lot of stress for other players that will end up with complaining going towards the staff.

All in all good fun though.

They were also designed for power scrolls and not a system which distributes platinum across up to 45 characters which show up. EA did lots of things, just because EA did them one way doesn't mean it should be done similarly here.

You misspelled ghost.

No, we weren't. You tried this a number of times and failed a number of times. We took counts a number of times to stop you and kill your blues. It got to the point where the main group had too many counts and couldn't continue. This isn't being powerless.

If you don't want to risk stat loss reds to murder blues, then don't bring stat loss reds. You're not "powerless" to bring stat loss reds, you simply don't want to because you fear dying more than you gain from successfully griefing or whatever else you want to do.

There are tools to deal with enemy blues. You use them all the time. You can use them right now, the problem is you don't want to use them because you don't want to deal with the costs, consequences, and risks of using them. That doesn't mean the risks are wrong or should be reduced.

Yes. I do think blues should get protection which differentiates them from aggressors, criminals, and murderers. Murderers who murder a lot should suffer a heavy penalty and risk.

No one doubts both your desire or effort to grief other players. The problem with this argument is that you are still able to do this with the changes. The only difference would be you get an additional option of bringing deep stat reds and killing lots of blues at harrower events in addition to your typical griefing. This change will benefit deep stat reds and punish most others, many of which are innocents and newer players who come to check out the event. What's worse about your suggestion is that you can currently do this if you like, you just want to significantly reduce the risk while doing it or the consequence if you fail.

I don't think it would be "easy street" for reds, but I think it would be far easier for reds to murder innocents without the risk they so industriously earned. This change makes it easier to control a harrower but also makes it easier and far less risky to raid it and kill blues. It shouldn't be easy to control a harrower spawn and there should be heavy consequences for murdering and dying on deep stat reds.

I'm with this I don't mind going to harrowers but with just mage/provo or a dex/provo my ebolts, or possibly one shot kills to just get (maybe) one or two hits off the harrower will never be enough to get any plat if there is like 30-50 dragons there or I should say I can never expect to get highest damage as a mage/provo cuz I don't have a dragon to sit there and smack the harrower while I heal him and thro a few ebolts in.

and yes if someone has 3 dragons going at the harrower sure they should get more damage output against the harrower that's common sense

IF there was a way to gift or receive(reward) to a dexxer for more armor protection against the harrower
or a boost to a mages magic ability to where the Ebolt or any spell for the duration of the spawn to increase the damage/result
to where he/she could stand there slashing/casting at the beast without getting 1 2 or 3 shotted it would be great.

just my two gold specs

Cheers,
Laretheo

What's your point? Powerscrolls have nothing to do with this discussion. This is about how the champ spawn/harrower system was intended to be defensible.



Is it possible for you to set aside in game drama for a few minutes for the sake of a discussion? Let's not stand in the way of progress because we're too butthurt to talk like adults.

Although you and I seem to have different recollections - we reached the same conclusion. You had too many counts and couldn't stop invaders.

Actually, I guess you can't. You're too much of a baby to have a rational discussion. Take it to trash talk.

I believe it's naive, at least when dealing with veteran players doing end game content, to assume that all blues are good and all reds are bad.
Especially in this context.
The system itself encourages people to protect their spawns, while punishing them with statloss. It's contradictory, and it leaves players with a choice between two miserable options - enduring statloss or bending over for invaders. It wasn't designed for this, statloss was removed in dungeons and t2a when champ spawns were introduced.

The system was designed with scarcity in mind and people were intended to fight over the spoils. There are no innocents to be protected here.

Honestly, if you treat me like a bad guy griefer who must be disagreed with here, it's not going to be a very productive conversation.
I'm simply pointing out the behaviors that the system incentivizes.

All you've done here is fearmonger about reds, ramble buzzwords (think of all the griefing!), and imply that I'm a bad person. You completely ignored the point I made about how the system will make spawning groups unable to defend their own spawn from malicious blues. You've also used a "think of the newbies" argument, completely ignoring the fact that the system as proposed gives spawning guilds every reason to not invite newbies and to tell them to fuck off where they do appear.

I think the problem I have with it is that it offers the group that spawns the harrower a choice between two unhappy options - bringing reds in (with inevitable stat) or letting people walk away with their plat. With this system, anyone who hits your harrower is literally taking plat away from you.
I don't think it's very fun game design to have to choose between two bad alternatives, right? People should be able to take a shot at the best possible result.

As for your question about why group A can't just use reds - I don't think it's possible for a group of reds here to win against a group of tamers with the way fireball cycling works. With stat on the line, I would say that it's insanity to even attempt it. The one time we took a shot at a harrower on reds, we were almost singlehandedly wiped out be Descartes because he understands fireball cycling.
Never in the server's history has a group of tamers lost a harrower to reds, and this will continue for as long as statloss does if not longer.
If you're happy with the way the system is, that's fine. I'm just pointing out that there is going to be conflict either way, and people are going to be generally unhappy when they realize that the stat system is preventing them from being able to meaningfully defend their harrowers.

I think what's most likely is that people will not spawn them. There's actually a place in game where these conditions already exist - it's lord oaks. Oaks is easy to scout, and you can't use reds to get rid of problem players because of the karma mechanics in the spawn.
I've seen both O^S and pwn abandon level 2-3 spawns when spotted by us because they couldn't stop us from showing up to make trouble on blues and steal the rewards. When faced with the option of letting enemies profit off of hard work, lots of people choose instead to do nothing. I think this will happen with harrowers and that people will be extremely hesitant to spawn them if they are not given tools to control their own spawns.

so with regard to this statement:

I think when faced with a situation where they are unable to murder their competitors due to thoroughly being shut down by stat loss and where they are unwilling to share with hated enemies, people will choose the hidden third option and not spawn harrowers except for at weird hours when no one is online.

I must say that I've honestly never actually been much of a champ spawner ... I quit OSI before champ spawns ever came out, yadayadayada...

With that said: It seems like such a great opportunity for conflict... and I'm with napo when he said having something to fight over, and hunting for sport are two entirely different ball games... the former being the product of interesting game mechanics that keep it fun/competitive.... and the latter being the product of boredom.

Soo *shrug*

In short: I need to think it out more before I can state my opinion on how it should be... but I think it should absolutely be something we can fight over.

I get goose bumps all over when you talk that way!

Even better: Disco their pets (no criminal flag) and let the spawn own it.

But still...One Template VS Another Template is not the issue.

Absolutely, but actually killing them to the point where you might go red on your tamer is out of the question due to statloss.
I think it would be best to show up, all kill their tames, and then stand around gray and bait them into attacking you so you can kill them. Going in on blues and being disruptive is going to be what people do here, and it's going to have a lot of people upset and complaining about griefing to the staff. This kind of behavior is far easier for the invaders to engage in, as pressure is going to be on the spawners to kill the harrower quickly when they're discovered.

It's a losing proposition for the defense, as the people who did all the work are going to lose plat and get killed by malicious blues if they're found. This is definitely a part of the problem - how easy it is to scout people trying to do harrowers. All you have to do is watch the star room.