Discussion about "heat of battle" changes

No need to be sorry, I'm just disagreeing with your examples. You're looking at it from a crafter's point of view, when I'm sure actual pvpers outnumber crafters by a lot in factions (or maybe not on this server). I'm not quite sure who you're using these faction weapons on anyhow, theres basically no factioning actually happening on this server from what I can see.

This server appealed to me because it doesn't allow certain clients used for cheat while pvping. Now that I'm established looking to pvp I noticed a flaw in the hob and made a post. Excuse me if this change wouldn't appeal to your crafter, but a lot of pvpers do agree with me and change can come if enough people are for the change. I will reiterate my point until non pvpers get tired of defending the broken hob system.

You're taking it personal and defending a crafter in a post about pvp... Also you're not Telamon, Telamon will decide what he thinks is best.

lol, a few people have agreed with forced HoB flagging in the past. It doesn't make it any less terrible an idea.

I'm defending the mechanics of Factions as they have been historically. I'm sorry you weren't here when we had large faction battles across multiple factions with faction crafters out there hustling traps and runics.

I'm making it clear that I'm defending that part of the system as totally sound and not in need of any mechanical changes that support/enable your ability to trap and gank the non-combative elements of Factions (or any, really). I don't hate you for wanting cheap tricks to help you net even cheaper kills. I just think it's a terrible idea and after being here this long, I know Telamon well enough to know he will never implement it.

He may update or modify HoB flagging at some point for certain aspects, but I'm fully confident that he won't do what you're suggesting.


I find it quite contradictory that people can be against HoB flagging while at the same time be for forced flagging on non-aggressors. lol

Id categorize the term "orange".

O /C as a more open and light system - HoB disabled
Factions as a more "hardcore" system with HoB for non agressors enabled
Guildwars - id welcome an option in the Guildmenu to trigger HoB if accepted by both partys


As far as it goes for reds id like to see some options for effective counterplay:
-not beeing able to use gates after flagging
-HoB for non agressive reds
-Improved systems against active pks (track range, or position report for "paladins" for example)


General suggestion:
More faccets of beiing orange - suitable for different playstyles
Nerfs for reds - even if we wont see HoB, please disable gates after agressive acts!

The idea for HoB at non agressive acts is a good one, and i understand where it comes from.
We have a lot of new players hop into pvp however, and thats why i believe its good to have different systems (HoB for O/C disabled for example)
HoB for reds without question! Im fully down for non-agressor HoB if its a red. If someones around on a red he certainly is asking for trouble as already mentioned!

I believe that would be an overall improvement and a suitable solution.

Factions were introduced after the updated hob system on OSI, if you wanted to be historically correct.

I sign up for battle and battle comes my way, my opponent should have to earn his kill before I can recall away? Or I have to earn my escape from the battle I signed up for and choose not to fight in? I would choose earn the escape, but hey I'm not a vagina.

Joining Factions is not implicitly or solely a "sign up for battle" system. That's what tournaments are for (hint: you can't Recall out of a shard-tournament/event).

Unless I'm mistaken, OSI has never had a forced flagging system for non-aggressors, regardless of which system you're citing.

First of that, that's not true, OSI absolutely locked you into HOB when attacked on an orange. And if factions isn't a sign up for battle, what is it, Blaise? Anything that makes you orange to others is absolutely a sign up to fight, it literally serves no other purpose. Crafters in factions only serve to help your combative faction characters and while we're on the subject let's hash out some of the reasons you don't want them held by HOB. You talked about making traps, but that doesn't count since you don't have to leave your house to make those, and as far as runics I'm on the side with the towns and would absolutely still use my valorite hammer to make blessed weapons if this were implimented, it would actually be the risk that valorite weapons need to have. You can't even sell the damn things anymore because everyone just buys one and uses it in trammel, effectively removing all demand for them.

some softer systems arent a bad idea to introduce new ppl to pvp.
Overall it would be good if there are various systems available, suited for different playstyles and preferences.

Neither era accuracy nor other shards systems should be into discussion here.
Id rather work on something that works for both newbies and vets under the shard's motto.

Added: are runics even THAT big of a thing in factions? And if it comes down to faction traps, then there is no argument why you wouldnt kill an enemy crafter on sight.

As a lot of things it would come down to proper adjustment and preperation.
I believe that HoB could make sence in factions and add new layers to it.

Newbies already have trammel events like ctf and tourneys, let's make Felucca great again.

Runics aren't that big of a deal at all, nobody runs dexxers in factions really. Certain individuals just want to use any excuse they can to protect their cowardice.

Guys there are like what 500 people on. Have to assume the majority of those are duplicate clients macroing characters and new players. So tbh you are fighting the same people every time and most of the "pvp" players have a group they run with...I think a discussion to get more people on the server would be a better topic. Cause as stated earlier no one likes to die. So a lot of player recall ASAP...is that fun? Sitting around town looking at your blessed clothes fun? Sitting in your fkn castles fun? Get the population up and you will have your pvp...won't be so upset when the only oj you come across recalls out and is nowhere to be found for another 2-3 hours of wasting regs and time. Pfffft I have not once been 1v1'd by a red or an oj. Won't get any fair fights but that's what dueling is for, but You get more Pop I think your problem will be solved.

Your a pale wench? Lord Baskin?... The last time I seen you was a 1v1, do you "recall" how it ended?

I agree with everything else you said, but that statement.

I have no reason to believe this statement. Please provide evidence if you can. I have read every published documentation I could find about Factions, by OSI, as well as countless forum threads spanning over a decade of Factions on OSI. The only thing I have ever found about Recall is that it cannot be cast by those with sigils in their possession.

In that same note: I have never seen a single thing that indicated heat of battle occurred for non-criminal actions. Thus, as an orange attacking an orange (non-criminal), neither should be truly flagged with HoB at all, ever. This halfway version we have here is a hindrance to aggressors only, which I feel is wrong. Doubling down on that to lock targets into HoB without their desire to engage, would literally only make a bad system worse.


PS: Crafters do a lot more than make runics. Historically there was a business side to Factions based on taxation and vendor placements. I don't think it's much of a stretch to assume you will not find a shred of evidence to suggest that non-combative characters could get flagged with heat of battle for being attacked by an orange (hint: neither side ever did because it was not criminal).

Excerpt from Stratics:
"The conditions for Faction combat interaction are as follows:

* Players cannot be in a party with opposing Faction members
* The reputation status of a faction player (thief, criminal, murderer, etc) takes precedence over faction status. Example: Although a faction mate cannot ordinarily be freely attacked, a faction mate who is a criminal or murderer CAN be freely attacked.
* The guild war status of a faction player takes precedence over faction status. Example: Although a faction mate cannot ordinarily be freely attacked, a faction mate who is in an enemy guild (guild war) can be freely attacked
* Although faction members can travel to Trammel (if they are not a murderer), there is no faction combat on the Trammel facet. However, all guild wars still apply.
* Faction members can use all magic spells in combat when in a guarded area.

The precedence order for lawful aggression is by reputation, then by guild, then by faction. Lawful aggression is any aggression that will not flag the attacker as a criminal. Aggressive party actions are not listed because they themselves never allow free lawful aggression between players."



Lawful aggression flags no one and that's what we should all be pushing for here. Not the ability to flag people who are not in a position to fight or have any interest to.


Certain individuals just want to use every thread they have to swing their sad little pixel peen around, despite no one caring at all.

Maybe you can't find it because it didn't only apply to factions, it applied to all pvp like I proposed. You would have to keep flagging someone if they were running away and if you didn't reflag or deal damage they could recall after 2 minutes.

Well, to save us both some time and effort I'll just leave this as it is. The truth is that none of this will happen, I don't expect to ever see pvp changes here at all let alone changes that will make certain individuals unhappy. It's been a long time since we've seen new content and as such I'm sure this topic is nowhere near the top of the list. Agree to disagree.

It never did, Woody. Please provide any shred of information to the contrary and I'll try to believe you (then try to disprove you with evidence). If you're just making propositions, that's fine. Have all the ideas you want. If you're trying to cite things as fact, please provide evidence to support it.

You would need them to re-engage you repeatedly to keep them from Recalling, in a criminal attack situation.

http://www.uoguide.com/Criminal

http://www.uoguide.com/Murderer

http://uo2.stratics.com/reputation/reputation-faq-blue-grey-and-red-flags/

Thank you Kane, for ceding your argument based on your inability to provide evidence to support it. This is good sportsmanship in forum discourse.

Well I suppose since that's how you're going to take it I'll sift through the patch noyes on broadsword when I get home. Keep in mind sandro had already mentioned that he changed it here, and knew we would want it back eventually. (I don't recall the exact nature but I believe it was blues being locked in when attacking reds). But, as I said, I will sift through and post my findings.

I just hate the mindset of " If I can't recall I'll die"..... ive seen tons of skilled pvper's get zerg'd on and with proper skill and proper items they survive it without a recall...... all the more reason to remember to fill that bag with pots and wands. And if your not that skilled yet.... practice. Unlike the entire world today.... UO don't give out participation trophies..... people know who the good pvpers and theres only one way to earn that.... You are not pvpin if everytime you are outnumbered you recall..... your wasting your time and the people wanting to beat ya down's time.

No, there was another dexer who joined and regardless I was in the middle of doing a transfer didn't have time to meddle with you. Lol