The Dexxer: Should we make some changes? (Long read inside)

Dexxers may have been more formidable in era, but the reason is because on production there were many, many people running around who weren't good and were not equipped with much of anything. It was a coin-flip if people even brought armor. Of course dexxers are better in situations where general skill levels are low and people are running around naked with only regs in their packs. This is not the general case on this server, the people who play here are of far higher skill and quality than those from production era Ren.

Dexxers roll dice. They don't construct and modify dumps, they don't go for 40% chance toggle stuns, they don't plan attacks to burst enough damage to kill the other player. They follow the other player around rolling dice and hoping. Any healing/bandages are the same for mages. Dexxers are not and never were consistent burst damage-dealers, they have always been great, consistent damage over time and inconsistent burst damagers.

It's very difficult to find information other than my memory about era, but I remember concussion blow was significantly changed from 1/2 int to something else on production as well before AOS.

If we want to talk about dexxer changes, we should talk about changes to the obviously underperfoming dexxer skills instead of just general buffs. Archery is garbage. Macing is garbage. Fencing and swords are fine.

You're right, it's not. However, It's far better data than what the OP "feels" is the case. Frankly, claiming hit chance may be as low as 30# is ridiculous.

I would love to see your hours of collected data about hit-chance and stun chance on live. My experience is it's the same, but I am open to being shown to be wrong.

While I cannot recall exactly which mechanics are different, there are some that are different or at least were at some points.

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http://uorforum.com/threads/patch-59-december-10th-2014-merry-christmas.7803/#post-62546

That was for weapon damage, which is what I thought you meant by like XdY (i.e. 7d5 warhammer damage or whatever, which had previously just picked a random number between 7 and 35).

I tested 1,000 level 8 spell castings at one point and didn't see any oddities in success/fails, but I didn't really have a hypothesis to begin with. Just "can I spot anything weird?" and the answer was No.

I see it, but no mention of the formula and it still doesn't seem correct here. I don't see any harm in just posting the formula and what the method used for random number is, whether it's just Random c# class or a hash table or something.

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If not available weapons as @One suggests, what about better protections?

For a pure 7x warrior to have equal probability to win a match with a 7x mage with otherwise equal ability and experience, the warrior needs better protection aganst the mage as the mage has against the warrior. In other words, the mage can protect themself with good medible armor and wrestling were the warrior has only resist.

I have heard it mentioned in at least two other threads that parry used to lessen the impact of spell bursts would help. This could lengthen battles enough to make pure warriors viable. This of course, imho, is a major change to UO dynamics but I would like to see test runs of it and some honest disscussions.

I can't argue that. This thread is lost in the minutia.


I've done "hours of testing". It's like... all I do actually. My results aren't worth sharing as the issues I've experienced have already been hashed out and recognized by Telamon. My top 3 are...

archery functions as melee
war axe does not lower target stamina
katana swing speed





My real opinion?

While some minor things (like above) can be addressed, the idea that a "dexxer" can be balanced with mages/tamers is a lost cause. It cannot be balanced because it isn't supposed to be balanced.


To finish and slightly change the subject, I wonder how many of these armchair stat slingers have ever rolled out a 7x dexxer (NO bard skills) in full invulnerability plate and a +25 vanq super slayer (long spear, halberd, war hammer, katana, kryss, war axe)?

Just to throw this out here (and because I've been guilty of it too), comparing a dexxer in anything less than stellar gear to a tamer is a huge oversight.

I'd ask everyone interested in this topic to review the many AMIB and level 7 treasure map videos out there. Look at the statistics of what these players are attacking. Look at the NPC's average armor rating, melee skill, hit point pool.

Look at how often the player is hitting and for how much. There's a few players out there that completed with a non-bard lumberaxer... ask them how much they hit the bosses for.

BUT... who's gonna routinely roll that type of gear out in the real world and farm when they could do it with a tamer and lose eff all nothing should they get murdered?

That and that alone is why I feel dexxers are "inferior" and out of balance. The gear is what makes them and the risk just ain't worth it.


Edit: that and the ridiculous amount of poison from the NPC AI... I hate the amount NPC's poison here soooo much.

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This quote right here slams home about 95% of any arguments, Should it really not be "BALANCED" ?? Does this make any sense at all?


This is where "history perfected" should reign supreme for server betterment instead of "keeping the top tier mage class happy."


Perhaps you mixed things up @Iago. I plan primarily (90%+ of the time) on a mage. So the blanket statement about "The few people who play dexxers wanting a change" couldn't be further from the truth.

My question to anyone who disagrees, is how much do you play a dexxer? Why don't you play it more or exclusively? Is it because you are awesome on a mage? Don't like dexxers? Or is it not viable?

I am 100% for heathly debate, but a lot of people who play mages are clearly in denial because they don't want any other class challenging theirs (Not directed at any individual, just in general.)

That's why I challenged people to dispute my claims with evidence. Or if you want to say "YOU HAVEN'T PROVIDED ME ENOUGH EVIDENCE BESIDES XXXX TESTIMONIES".... Then you tell me a solution. That's the point of the matter here. We have a wonderful server with a clear imbalance towards dexxers.

Is 10-12% hit chance going to matter that much?

(62% Hit chance vs 50% Defense for top tiered weapons in my solution of 1% per tactics, and using a +20 or +25 tactics weapon)

Honestly? I don't think so. It will still favor mages because of the RNG of it all. But at least we shouldn't see the obsurd amount of misses dexxers usually see.

Oh, and remember, those dexxers can still hit you for 1 with one of those hits.



PS: As a mage, it is boring to have to use a stun mage and nothing else. Wouldn't you like to be able to use a tank mage of some sort?

PSS: If people started using dexxers and tank mages, thieves and thief mages would become more popular again to attempt to steal those weapons. See how this makes everything more useful?

I think we should avoid changing the subject away from what the OP wants to talk about. I find that whenever we allow threads to do that, we totally lose any sort of productive discussion. That being said, I agree animal taming is the giant gorilla in the room. Dexxers will very typically outdo tamers in dps with simple vanquishing weapons, especially if the tamer's pets have low mana. When you add slayers to the mix, the dexxer will always beat the tamer. The main issue between the two is the tamer has 2,000hp+ with 4s heals while the dexxer has 120hp with 8s heals.

Dexxers in pvm are far, far superior than mages.

@Loxness

You should reread my comment, you're confused.

I play a tank mage probably more than any other character. Tank mages are very common in pvp. When you say things like this, it makes me question whether you have the experience necessary to discuss this.

I play a mage because I like consistent burst damage/healing and the versatility it offers for mobility. I do not like a playstyle which is essentially putting your character on follow and praying. Dexxers have never in the history of UO been consistent burst damage dealers. They have always been inconsistent in the moment but able to do far higher damage over time... which is what they do very well.

Why are your perceptions so radically different than my tests? Don't you think more evidence should be required before radical changes are made? Why do you think dexxers perform so well in CTF?

You don't get to just state something is true and then demand others disprove it. I would love to see your evidence that dexxers miss 70% of the time. You don't have that evidence. This has nothing to do with wanting mages to remain the most played pvp character, this has to do with my fundamental understanding of what the mage and the dexxer are.

If you didn't think 10-12% increased hitchance would matter much, you wouldn't be constantly advocating for that change.

Perhaps I PVP different people than you do. Or at different times. Or in different places. Or on a different server? I have never seen a tank mage in any PVP I have done on this server. I swear to you. Granted, I don't play before 8pm EST, so maybe there is different fighting/PVP before then, but after that, sorry no go.

In the first post I stated, standing still and against monsters (Also standing still) The hit chance did indeed seem to be 50%. When in the field and moving, this changes radically, is what I stated. You tested this? How? And When? Because I was sort of unsure of how I could test it. How many swing did you test? What weapon? Against another weapon? Or against fists? Because if not, that your "tests" weren't what I stated appeared to be wrong.

Again, I stated, I don't know how you could do a test outside of video footage and keeping track manually. If you can come up with this, and it will prove to be relevant, I am 100% for it! Let's get to it soon!



*Also of note, I said dexxers missing wrestlers or "fists" that much -seemingly-. Hitting other dexxers/weapon wielders is not the issue.*

And a change is 1% per 10 tactics. It isn't like I am saying "HEY EVERYONE GETS 12% HIT CHANCE! LET'S GO!"

It is incorporated into the skill. Just like eval int gives spell damage, resist blocks spells.... etc.

And it was a solution I came up with, and I said feel free to suggest another.

Perhaps you think to keep it the same, and everyone here complaining just suck and we are all delusional, perhaps?

Honestly man, if you have no qualms with the dexxer and think they are balanced with mages, I think you are the one who is in denial.

If they were so strong, why aren't there more? Why are people agreeing with me and complaining? Is this just a big ruse to make the "SUPER STRONG DEXXER" even stronger?

Do you honestly believe they are equal? If so, that's fine. Opinions are opinions. But -A LOT- of people disagree otherwise. And that's what this thread is all about.



PS: I am the OP lol.


PSS: Lumberjack's don't do great in CTF. Unless they are fighting one of the naked people running around. And they have a valorite/verite crafted runic. Even still, they miss 3 out of 5 times. That's why a team of all/mostly mages destroys a team of dexxers in CTF, Honestly.

Equipment balance.

The entire imbalance in the combative classes is the disproportionate cost to run the top tier equipment.

Players just simply do not worry about a dexxer getting in their face in the field here because the vast vast majority can't afford to run verite+.

People want to say it's a slim difference but when that slim difference is the only thing between redline and dead, it matters quite a bit.

dexxers use verite and valorite runics and mages wear invuln armor in ctf

the difference between a verite/valorite weapon hitting invuln armor versus a gold or +20-25 vanq hitting barbed is a pretty slim difference

I think the major reason is because it suits the dexxer playstyle: long-term damage chances against players with limited mobility. Mages quickly run out of mana.

@Loxness

Which characters do you use? Since you pvp so often, I'm sure I will know them.

The reason you think you miss more than you do is because you likely think you're swinging more than you are. I neither have the time nor the desire to disprove something you haven't supported beyond only your perceptions of them. You spent a long time writing out the OP, why didn't you spend it figuring out if your baselines claims were actually accurate? You could have recorded and counted, but you didn't. Instead, you just claimed something ridiculous and are trying to shift the burden on to others to disprove or support it.

You claimed that miss chance on a dexxer while moving was 70%... so yeah, I do think you're delusional.

Honestly, I tried to keep reading but your posts aren't even replying to what I'm writing. I didn't bother reading the rest. Good luck.

its funny you say you play a tank mage iago but i to have only seen one an i know it wasnt you an it was just once. an i pvp almost daily with either lox or crunk juice. missing large numbers is real. being lucky to hit 3 times an getting atleast 1 low roll on damage but i miss 8 to 10 swings all the time either it be in the field or just in ctf chasing stun mages. it isnt made it its a truth

So let's review.

I never mentioned any of this. Damage was never EVER discussed at all. This may not have been directed at me, but the whole thread is about hit chance. Damage is not of discussion. RNG/Dice rolls of damage is okay. RNG/Dice rolls of hit chance is not.

So, you haven't disproved anything. I haven't "proved" anything. We are back to square one.


In the first post (That I don't think you even read mind you) I broke down completely what I felt were issues. Piece by piece.

I also stated if you are 100% pro mage, don't reply. Or simply say "I disagree" because you are here to create an argument over nothing without any information. You didn't listen to that either.


I also stated

You didn't do that either.


I also broke down PROS & CONS of my proposed changes. I added in, if you disagree state why. Add to either PRO/CON.

Or list your own changes / Pros / Cons.... Etc.



Sir, you did none of this. You did several posts mentioning you PVP all the time on a tank mage, and dexxers are better than mages in most, if not all scenarios. Yet, you prefer a mage. I asked you why, and you state mages healing and burst damage is better. But, dexxers are better? And you didn't dispute / add / contribute any of the things I asked in the OP.

You did nothing but clog up the thread in an attempt to derail the movement of the dexxer/warrior class getting better.

If you were actually TRULY a 100% tank mage, you SHOULD 100% LOVE THESE CHANGES because it does nothing but make the tank mage PROBABLY the strongest class in the game.

Thank you for your... input? I guess.


Hopefully people who use dexxers can voice their opinions and get some things changed.

@Broli

I have killed you at least a few times on my tank mage on at least two different occassions. I know this because I have your verite weapons in my trophy chests. The last time was during the Easter event in Magincia.

Okay, so let's see those tests you've done. I've done that test and I came out with ~50% hit chance. Forgive me, I'm not intending to be rude, but your guys' perceptions are not good evidence because you will always remember a string of misses far more than a string of hits. It's how one of you comes to claim dexxer miss chances are 70%.

@Loxness

I have maybe seen one of those characters pvping one time and that was during the easter event and maybe 2 of those characters ever. Where/when is it you do all this pvp?

While it's clear you want changes because it's in your interest and bonuses the playstyle you enjoy, I do not support things just because they may buff my playstyles. It saddens me this is the only way you analyse this topic.

When I did a test to find the hit chance, it comes out to 50%. What does everyone think is more likely? That @Loxness, the guy who claims dexxers miss, on average, 70% when they're moving around is correct or that the test is did is likely more accurate and Loxness's perceptions aren't dependable?

ps: that screenshot with names which look like incogs (ignoring the ease with which one could change that image) doesn't disprove you're the jhelom pk (although I have no opinion on it)

I stated before I have no idea at all how you could duplicate a testing of moving hit chance. Unless you literally wrote a macro in razor to run back and forth just to hit someone? And that could be tedious and sometimes not work out correctly. And if @Chris doesn't care for the results, I am certainly not going to waste my time. If he says otherwise, I will certainly look in to it.

And I was hardly around for the easter event. I played the first day (In which I killed almost 100 fluffy's the first day and didn't kill another one the whole event lol). So saying that you saw me PVPing then, I don't feel is accurate. I could be wrong though, but that was a very busy 2-3 weeks for me IRL.


And I said before, I literally play/have every type of character. LJ, Macer, Swords/Mage, 3 Stun Mages, 2 Tamers, 2 Viable PVP Thiefs, Provo Mage with 5x mage skills... etc.... I could care less what is strong and what isn't. I play anything and everything based on who is playing with me and what is needed, or what will be fun at that time.

But you still simply haven't said....

Why/why not to my proposals

What you would change

Why/why not

Pros/Cons

How often do you...

Play a dexxer?
Play with a friend who is a dexxer?
Fight against dexxers?
Play a hybrid/tank mage?
Play with a friend hybrid/tank mage?
Fight against a hybrid/tank mage?




If you care enough to take the time and to try and rebuttal what I say about dexxers needing a boost, you should have the time and be able to answer all those no problem as well.



PS: None of my names are changed/incoged. And I don't want to say what characters of mine are thieves (because then people would know to run when I am around....) but they definitely aren't the more basic names ROFL. Those "basic" names are my RL name & my fiance's RL name lolol.

The basic names are you and your fiance? You have 1 male name and 2 female names.. mormon?

I like this "debate" regarding the dexxer.

First of all, i want to say that i mainly play dexxer out of pure love to it, i like the way the character struggles, how hard is to face enemies, thinking about the approach and what you are going to do if you happen to find a pk nearby are a constant threat and i love it.

When i joined the shard about a month ago, my first creation was an archer that had to be dropped down for swords + parry, but it wasnt until the resistance party that i was actually able to do anything with the dexxer and even with a GM res character im not able to do shit.
Just yesterday i was trying to find someone to team up(on IRC) with the dexxer cos i thought i had reached the limit of its capacity, the first reply i got back was "It's time to make a tamer"

What i've come to find is not the problem with the damage output, you cant expect a warrior to be a Kal Vas Flamer on every hit and i think that increasing the damage/swing speed/hit chance, will only make some versions of mage/bard/tamer more overpowered. The real lacking issue i see is Parrying.
I barely manage to parry some hits and allthough the shield grants a lot of armor, it means nothing if im still getting bitch slapped around.
I really think that improving Parrying a bit more would be healthier with less whining on the side for the other templates.

For example, Parrying + Tactics + Resisting spells = Chance to mitigate some magic damage / Reflect
Parrying + Anatomy + Tactics = Chance to mitigate some Phys damage
Parrying + Healing = Less chance to slip fingers on heal bandies
Parry + Tactics = Higher block chance at the cost of more stamina ? Chance to block higher damage hits ?

I dont know, but i really think that an improve to the 7X dexxer would be better working around the shield mechanics.

Nice ideas Newt. Parry is also fairly underpowered on this server. But that doesn't seem to help your 2 handed weapons at all, unfortunately.

I know on production servers (Evil OSI) they added hit chance on the shields and such. But then again they added bushido, which parrys attacks better with a 2 handed weapon than a shield. Very odd.

But, what would you do about the hit chance? And how to increase it? @Newt