AFK Gump? Please at least try to read before voting, this is why we ended up with Trump

Yeah, did this on Sunday.....started the day not knowing what I'd do with my day in UO (had a wife pass as I'm sick and have to stay away from the fam).......think I spent 4-5 hours dinking with Joe Bot and those who showed up

I appreciate the enthusiasm but, that's not what I meant at all.

Rally, plot, war

UO

Alright.

So, ghosting in dungeons is not allowed - because.... its gathering information about players and their location, sometimes, if not all times as an afk bot reporting it via chat?

How can afk gathering of information regarding an idoc not be considered the same thing?

"Information is not a resource" - absolute bullocks. Information is the MOST important resource, of all time, anywhere.

I see the unwillingness to be open to an adjustment of the IDOC system as just a way to keep those with power, in power.
Hell, it wouldn't be the first time it's been hinted that new players aren't deserving of expensive loot.

well i imagine ghosting in dungeons isnt allowed because you cant counter a ghost.

keeping in the felucca mindset if people plant a stealther in high traffic pvm areas it can be found and killed therefore its not a problem unlike a ghost.

same way a bot can be killed.

there is no grand conspiracy

Yes a bot can be killed, but not before he's already reported to guild chat.

Left Click in Razor is disabled. When I consider why that might be, I conclude that it most definitely includes being able to automate the clicking of anything to determine some information.

Unfortunately Item ID on a sign provides that same information.

So... why not just fix the problem by making the IDOC timer more variable? Is there a downside to this other than causing vets to adjust their methods of remaining the richest with the most rares?

it doesnt help new players how do you non idocers not understand this??

i ran with 2 other people running the map, doing idocs. with a random timer we NEVER would have gotten to an idoc because we simply didnt have the manpower.

who the f^^&$ wants to sit at a house for hours waiting for it to drop? you? do you have nothing better to do with your time?

you also NEED TO RUN THE SAME BOT TO GET THE IDOC TIME EVEN IF ITS RANDOM

the lack of comprehension is unbearable

Wow. Rage some next time.

You're running a bot that is checking it... is that same character being used elsewhere in between recall / ID the sign? No. It's not. So you are in fact afk sitting there waiting for it to drop.

The issue people have is with the bot in the first place, automation of anything that makes you wealthier should not be allowed. It's not for literally all the resource gathering in the game.... but when it comes to the single most profitable thing in the game (a nice big idoc) - its fine?

I understand that it will never change, as that's how the veterans that are "idocers" want it.

I don't understand how something so valuable is allowed to be fully automated, when something so minor as chopping wood, is not.

because people who dont have a clue always pipe up the most and its annoying.

The bots dont tell the crew when the house has fallen. it only captures the idoc time.

you can use a bot to recall harvest wood and you can sell that wood... thats not allowed.

you run a recall bot to give you a general time a house will fall and so you know when you need to be attended to get that idoc... attended being the key thing here

Name one veteran who IDOCs....

You're splitting hairs now.

The bot acquires information via an automated process. That provides an advantage to the recipient of said information.

We can't automate the process of chopping wood as it can be sold... so the potentially millions in items from an idoc can't be sold for financial gain? Or is it only the automated selling that isnt allowed? No. Not the case, else we'd only have afk checks on buy/sell.

A timer that is randomized with a wider range (as I understand it was in OSI, but who knows, I have no clue) will allow smaller crews a chance. Rather than the largest crew rolling in right smack bang on the timer and claiming the lot for themselves.

I have no issue with a crew having a really good timer if they've earned it by monitoring, just this automation means that anyone else must set up an identical process to stand a chance. Hooray for UO:IdenticalBotsForAll! May as well start running PvP macros that perform bandages and pots for us as well eh? That sounds fun! :/

As was said by someone... somewhere... aren't we playing UO? We're not playing Razor.

Anyway, I don't actually enjoy the concept of an IDOC whatsoever, its just kind of crappy that someone can gain millions in seconds, that has taken someone else potentially years to earn. But its something that has always been in place. I'd love to see the system perfected.

I'll just rephrase to "veteran idocers".

There is no logic in this statement whatsoever. Go back and read Chris' posts in this thread, and then re-read them until you fully understand why the current system is the most fair way of creating a level playing field. Again, the issue is that nobody attends IDOCs. The dominant groups are dominant because they are simply unopposed 90% of the time. You can be dominant too, through known methods, if you care to get organized and put your UO time exclusively into this activity. How is that unfair?

The new player argument gets thrown around way too much on these forums for a variety of issues. Almost nobody is truly playing UO for the first time ever. There is so much support among the playerbase on UOR that actual new players probably have everything they need & know everything they need to know within a couple of months of starting.

The logic in that is: that the older players seem unwilling to entertain the idea of a change to a system that they do quite well from as it stands, even though the system is seems contrary to others in place. (The automation for financial gain, or information that leads to financial gain). By the logic being thrown around, I could say that its fine to afk chop wood, everyone can do it, if you don't like it - kill the bot!

As for the rest of your post. You're essentially just saying shut the fuck up, it is how it is, don't discuss it.
Cool man.

New player argument? I'm referencing a specific encounter where it was the case. An older player cracking the shits that I have acquired something and that its bullshit because I'm new.

I think it comes down to the fact that in this thread and every other IDOC thread, there hasn't been a single post that does a good enough job of refuting the existing mechanics that Chris has outlined. It takes a little effort but every single player has the information they need to participate.

They still need to be monitored. As a solo player, this is by far the easiest part of the process. One does not need to 'set up an identical process' at all.

edit: They have earned it by creating a schedule and figuring out some macros. You can do this too. You don't even need macros.

Well we could sit there afk all day or attend the recalling in to check; but that's exactly what Smash was suggesting would be horrible and a reason for not wanting a wider range variable timer. Additionally, a bot is far far more reliable in getting in, checking, and getting out than any attended player could hope to be. Like clockwork infact.

To properly compete, we would indeed need to replicate or create something very similar. We'd be crazy not to, right?

So, to revisit the whole point of this (for me).

Why is some automation ok, but others are not?
Why is some information gathering ok, but others are not?

I mean... I have checked for ghosts with a ghost of my own, in a way I'm defeating their plan. I took the time to check with a ghost to make sure none were about, so therefore everyone can do the same.

I suppose I'm looking for consistency, which is all a player of any game can ask any referee or developer for.

I cant believe I read this whole post... 2 hours of my life I will never get back...

Fair enough if you're looking for consistency but I'm just going to comment on Idocing and what I've experienced doing it.
I've said it already, but the bot-setting is the least intensive part of the idoc process. A bot is not far more reliable if your own bot, or you as a player, check the houses within a narrow window. The bot is also not more reliable if you kill it or block its runes.

The information gathering aspect of idocing is the easiest and least competitive part. If a player is missing out or coming up short at Idocs, it is not because they got out-botted during the information gathering stage. So I appreciate your concerns but I think you're trying to have conversations about several different things within an idoc thread. A conversation about automation itself might be a good idea, but I don't see how the automated part of information gathering gives anyone an advantage when it comes to idocing. It really doesn't. Any player, new or old, can acquire that very same information so easily.

I'm not really talking about what part is easier. I understand that the competition at the IDOC is the most difficult. As for bot reliability - its as good as it's master isn't it. You could easily add in a few bits n pieces to make it "smarter" about how it does things. "That location is blocked." Ok, use Rune#2 -> Detect Hidden -> Attack Nearest Humanoid -> blah blah, theres a lot that can be added. I'd hate to see a scenario where best bot wins with automated blocking, marking, fighting, etc. occurring between them. That could easily happen when one crew tries to one up the other with a superior Razor script.

The automation being available to everyone is the exact argument I just showed you regarding ghosts. Anyone can do it - so why is that illegal but this type of information gathering is not?

You're right about a conversation about automation is probably worthwhile; I feel a similar way about detect hidden bots/macroing, that it's automation gaining an advantage in PvP, or influencing it (in the case of a bot revealing a stealthing character). The way conversations on the forums go though, I honestly don't think I could spare the energy to bother with it.

@JimmyTheHand could you elaborate on the issue with detect hidden, I didn't understand it, not looking for a forum fight don't worry - just intrigued!