Griefing

@retrojoke If you're going to post in this manner, tag me next time.

As for always having an answer. Is it because I'm all knowing? No.
Offering rebuttal is something we do in what is called discussion, or debate.

As you're now resorting to attacks of this kind, I can only assume you have nothing more to offer the thread.

Thanks for your previous input. Don't let the door hit you on the arse on your way out.

Oh so now you're griefing him in the forums too! WHEN WILL THE MADNESS STOP

It's griefing if it causes grief, upset or stress. Read a dictionary.

As Telamon once said (and is quoted in a lot of forum sigs):
"<Telamon> UOR does not exist as a mechanism for players to grief one another. It exists so players can experience how UO used to be in 1999, not as a sociopath simulator."

Like dictionary.com as Duke Cannon showed on page 2?

You're right. Its not a sociopath simulator. Thats very different to what we're discussing though.

I read the arguments and it was quite a wild ride. Now you can continue arguing about the semantics all you want but the fact is this server is probably the nicest most wholesome UO experience you can find. PKs give stuff back all the time, house looters give stuff back. You can probably ask around for help in IRC and come out a millionaire in an hour.

I can't talk for severe harassment and scamming some people get off on as it is not something I do nor have I been on the receiving end. In my experience, people who complain about griefing or unfairness in a PvP - PK setting have issues with control and are generally suffering from what we call the "tamer greed". I think they are getting frustrated because they are not used to losing. When they get their face smashed in or get outsmarted in house security or their afk macros interrupted they come to irc and cry. These are the type of people who would do much worse if they had the slightest bit of power but can't because they are trash.

Most PKs are trash and I really don't understand how people die to these people. I understand if you are a very new player but you should have some idea how to PvP on a defensive level if you wanna play a fel shard and still be in control.

Having said that there are things I consider poor form. Shit like reskilling outside combat, mount killing out of combat, house looting. I don't like it but you should be allowed to do it. We just gotta deal with it and keep a note of these behaviors. This is how rivalries are born and real enemies are made. When everyone is nice and friendly it kinda takes the oomph out of UO.

@Balgami ,well put.
I agree with @JimmyTheHand , and it also seems that most people label you a griefer JUST for playing a thief or a red.

I looted runebooks off a lady and contacted her in IRC offering to sell them back and immediately was called a griefer. Coulda just looted them and stayed silent. Was really only trying to get 5k a book and probably would have went cheaper just for the rp.

I've only been here a month, but even in the newbie dungeon or the valentines event you can see "non thief, non pk" players doing things that aren't necessarily griefing, but are just kinda shitty :

-Bringing your dragons into the newbie dungeon and clearing it out

-"Training" archery on the monsters in the Provo cages

-Watching a newer player hit a vday spawn until 10% health and then running it in finishing it off and looting

As Balgami put it there are generally good people on here I've seen it in my guild and around the world. Pks that don't dry loot, some will even res. Thieves offering back goods at cheap prices to victim.

Hell when I first started my young Provo dex lost a ship. I asked in IRC and within 3 minutes someone met me recalled to ship and gated me back to it. I was so happy to not have eaten 13k that I told them I also had a thief and granted them immunity, told them to mention the boat if I ever got too close.
Almost a month later I steal a BOD from a guy in a smith and as I'm running away he just says "boat". I gave the BOD back.

Instances like that are why I really enjoy this server , and why I got so into ultima on the first place.

*8:43 am having a whiskey in the airport, apologize for the length

Having started in '98, I can tell you Britannia was full of psychopaths back then.

@Balgami Well said
@O'Malley Also well said!

Another example, without trying to blow my own horn here: I recently looted someones house, a day or two later a guildie of that player contacted me (calling card was left).
Im on good terms with them and he explained how that player had already had a rough time of late and the loss of all that stuff really put him in a down mood regarding playing here.

I decided to return the bulk of the goods and I think we saved a new player from potentially leaving us here.

That player has since learned a bit more. Not that he's now immune from me, far from it!

It's been very difficult to explain Jimmy's point but, I believe it's the same as mine regarding the term grief.

It's been redefined here and is used as a term to trigger negative retaliation against another player.

"Thief McThieferton is a griefer. He stole my zookeeper scroll. He should be banned because I feel very bad about what happened in game. I just might quite forever because this happened to me. The server owner should step in and make me feel better about this situation by punishing McThieferton or at the very least change the way the game works so it never happens again. I'm going to make several posts about it and spam IRC until the majority agrees with me."

The term is (albeit sloppily) being discussed as an attempt at social awareness/development. Granted, at page 7 it's still failing.


That said, I'm bailing on this subject as I've given up. I'll go down in flames and enjoy the ride.

Cya

Hasn't been only 7 pages, but about 20 years. People got salty and quit about being taken advantage of back then in the same ways just as they do now.

It's a game, but even that means something different to everyone.

I'm not here to convince anyone of anything but here is my 'vote' as to what it means (to me).

If the act has an in game benefit to the person doing the action it is not griefing.
If the act has no in game benefit and is being done for the amusement of the person doing action at the expense of another, it is griefing.

Please note that I see an in game benefit in the view of the one doing the action in question. Example: Killing a pet to cause the pet owner to not be as efficient (time lost) at farming a mob the pet-killer is farming is a benefit to the pet-killer and I would not consider it griefing. It sucks and I wouldn't do it, but I do see the benefit in the action.

Again, this is only how I view it. Y'all do you.

Hey @Phaero

Solid view and makes sense. Although I think you should consider the fun of the player performing the action as well.

A good example of that is RP. There's no in game benefit to that, just enjoyment of what they're doing.

Another is the super rich player that have no need for anything, but enjoy the thrill of a bank steal.

These type of things is why I listed fun as a legitimate reason, as well as why I believe griefing is when it is intended to ruin the gameplay of others.

Thanks for the input

@JimmyTheHand

1- Bank stealing has a benefit that I can justify no matter the net worth of the thief.

2- I've never really gotten/understood folks that RP. I also have never had a griefing incident with someone who is into it. Having said that, if they RP as a character whose actions I consider griefing (defined above) then I would not view it differently.

How to avoid being griefed for trammies:

That's the spirit!


?

this server needs a trammel. nuff said

okay...

My overarching point was that the problem with online games now is that people think that the "evolution" of a word is determined by how many bads use it incorrectly. Games are basically walking memes right now, that isn't an evolution.

It's regression.

Unfortunately, this has become popular as of late not only in games, but as a much larger social and cultural problem.

I'm glad you appreciated my little history talk, I typed more than I anticipated since it's been a while that I thought about those times. I don't think games making their own definitions is a good idea, especially in a game like UO. UO has too many built-in systems that are basically griefer systems, as I've said, so when you make generic rules like "No griefing!" you're going to turn away a lot of old school MMO players and also confuse a lot of new players. I can only speak as a player and sometime admin on a few random private servers, but from what I've seen, being as specific as possible is important to keeping things running smoothly.

While logs can show many things(like the guy that house killed for like 6+ months non stop)they can't necessarily show things like if you've been trolling some guy for a week or two. In that case, let's say I was the guy trolling, and it was just some dude I disliked. Rules prohibit me from just sitting outside his house killing him 24/7, I'm fine with that. But....that's only if you know my intent and believe what that guy says. What if the reason I'm griefing him is because he house killed my alts, raided my house, or whatever else? In what UO universe is righteous payback not an acceptable consequence for that person? Some dude causes you grief, you either run to IRC and cry or you buck up and go find his house and own him.

Rules that rely on the honesty of players do not work. Rules aren't a "pay it forward" kind of system. Draw the line in the sand, and it becomes easier for the admins and also for the community. Griefing is inherent to UO, but the vast majority of players don't go nuts and spend months house killing randoms.

Having your stuff stolen, getting your horse owned, accidentally walking through a gate into dragons....these things are all hilarious and add to the charm of UO. If you can't handle "griefing" and just want to sit around making pants, there are servers made for this purpose.

Felucca ain't for people that just sit around makin' pants. So either accept that people are going to kill you because you choose to spend your time making pants or learn how to pvp and respond correctly. That's the beauty of UO, for basically 99% of shit that happens to you; you can prevent it or respond in kind.

Edit: To clarify I am one of the pants crafters at this current time(HELL YEAH BOD LIFE)and I fully expect to get my shit stolen, have people try to rob my house, block my recall spots, all that jazz. Though since it's UO, I can just log a red and kill them. Basically anywhere in the game world, at that! It's not that crafters don't have a place in Felucca *at all*, they do, but it's about what you expect. Like a blue expecting a res, or expecting to be LET to res in front of the mean dudes that just killed him. That isn't real life okay.

Editedit: Also I am laughing hard at people trying to say that STEALING SOMEONE'S STUFF and basically blackmailing them isn't griefing. What. "Heh yeah I took your runebooks, you can have them back if you pay me gold ya dumb nerd!!!" I added in the last part because a good thief would take the payment, and steal back the items. People play old UO rulesets because the game is hardcore, not because you're safe 100% of the time and every thief will sell back items and every red will res you.