Griefing

@Twister It is a rare situation, but doable.

You might've also missed in my examples of legitimate gameplay, the following line:

-Killing a character for loot, kill count, red status or fun.

Thanks for clarifying that though, some parts of my OP should've been made clearer and easier to see/find

@JimmyTheHand I haven't missed it, I actually used it in my last post to show that 2 out of 3 "griefing" examples fall into this "not griefing" example

Not sure I've ever been defensive about my playstyle. I do it, I have fun with it, most people comprehend that. I don't need to defend it

As for you considering griefing to be anything that causes grief, we've been through this in a number of spots in this thread, for the most part people agree that it is the intent behind the action that defines it.

Your opinion on this is exactly what we need to stamp out - over use of the term where it really isn't applicable.

Thanks for your input though, a lot more useful than some other posts!

@Twister Aha, I seem to have misunderstood your initial red wording then, as I said "for no benefit", meaning, with the sole purpose of ruining the gameplay of the victim.

Anyway, I think we're on the same page. As for griefing being non-existent, unfortunately it does exist, but it's VERY rare. Hence why I wish the term was reserved for those rare occurrences.

Who determines if it's for benefit or not.
Is there an impartial benefit committee that rules on a case by case basis?

I don't wanna be a griefer no more.

@JimmyTheHand you are wrong, and you are right...
@Brick You are also wrong and also right...
@wylwrk You are always right, keep on keeping on bro...

To the guy who just called me a griefer for killing his horse (not going back to find his name), removing 550 gold pcs from the in game economy increases the value of all my assets, so expect that the Great Doosh Baggins to keep on horse killing


Back to Brick, thanks for the history lesson, but like many things (including the definition of trolling) the definition of griefing evolves with time and will be redefined by each community that embraces it. It was neat, but irrelevant to Jimmy's point.


Jimmy, you are a griefer, you have griefed me any many other players, but dont hide from it, own it. Your grief is acceptable and welcomed in the UOR community. You are valuable to the community and so is your gameplay. However...


If you want to know the definition of griefing on OUR just ask the community, or better yet, wait to get told. The definition evolves with the community... if one day they decide that house looting is griefing, the community wants that looters eliminated or mechanics changed, then they will set the bar and the definition what is acceptable, assuming that if fits into Chris' design. This after all his baby and we as guests need to be respectful of that.


I am not criticizing you for defending your playstyle on the forum, as that is what needs to be done so the community can judge you, your thoughts, and actions, as I don’t fault those who cry griefing on IRC or the forums either, as the community will judge them as well.


As for myself, every so often I find enjoyment in a little griefing, and I find myself pissed off when I am griefed, so I guess I am a hypocrite.


And I wrote this with little to no sleep, so none of it probably makes sense anyway, so Brick, feel free to "troll" my post and Jimmy feel free to "grief" me on the forums by criticizing my response.


I got nothing but love for you both

SOF forever!

This is unfortunate. There is certainly nothing wrong with fishing, but it is sad that the actions of other cowardly players cause some to have to stop doing things they enjoy in-game. People will probably tell you to "git gud" and fight back or bring friends. But as I will explain below, this really isn't viable for a solo farmer.

Although this won't work for everyone, something I do in order to "fight back" against the PKs when I have some free time during peak hours is go farm arctic ogre lords with a bard carrying nothing but an instrument, 5 of each recall reg and a blessed runebook (or if you don't have one, just have an alt on standby in town who can cast gate for rez) and just feed counts to the PKs, even every 5 minutes if necessary. As another wise player has pointed out recently in IRC, reds will say they don't care about short-term murder counts, but they are lying and they do and it is annoying for them, as evidenced by how often you see them burning counts in their houses (e.g. dagger island). If they really keep returning to kill you ever 5 min, then to me it is worth far more than what I would have earned farming. And if not, you will still make gold between deaths. Aside from that, if I am out farming for maximum profit, I almost always get away, even with pets, unless I am being careless and not paying attention not ready to hit my recall/gate macro the instant another player shows up. I've even stepped through my gate with all my pets and died from expl in town, gave 3 counts, and then rez'd and looted my body at my leisure. That was particularly satisfying and IMO would more than counter any negative feelings caused by disruptions in farming sessions. So there are things that can be done to fight back against the "gank squads" without having to show up in force or being "gud" at PvP.

Aside from using good recall/gate macros, if you do end up getting PKd by one of these "gank squads", make it as boring as possible for the PKs. Don't accept a rez, don't interact with them, don't give them the satisfaction of getting upset in IRC. Bank often and don't ever let them get more loot than the value of a few minutes of farming. Make it as boring and profitable for them as killing an escort NPC.

@JimmyTheHand speculated earlier a bit as to why there aren't anti-PK groups like there were on OSI. I'd like to further speculate as well and repeat something that has been said earlier and support my position of calling *most* PKs cowards. People simply like to win even if it means going after extremely easy targets. It should be obvious why PKing is the preferred form of "PvP" here for many players: On one side you have a group of pvp-template players who are mentally and "pixally" prepared for a fight, who are in voice chat and who have the element of surprise on their side. They can load up expl offscreen and rush in, target closest blue. And if something goes wrong, they have 2 mare packs waiting to be gated in as backup. On the other side you have a pvm-template solo farmer who likely isn't loaded up with potions, has no idea when the fight will begin, likely doesn't even really know how to fight, and who is occupied by MOBs. Who is the likely winner here?

During my short time on this server I had the immense privilege of encountering Skunk Ape in the Covetous dungeon one time. He embodied the OSI-style solo dungeon PK we all knew and loved. PKing is part of the game and always has been, but the PKs need to police themselves (i.e. I am not running crying to Telamon to ban the PKs or to switch on Trammel). Perhaps the shard could also unify against the players who run these PK groups and treat them and their blue alts/mains like the outcasts they are, like the outcasts NPCs will tell you they are.

Good post @fixfrozenpipes. The one PKing that really annoyed me was when Azerothian got killed and looted IN THE P'S SHOP WHILE RESTOCKING VENDORS. I will even bet that the PKs have shopped at Sanctuary Tradepost in the past.

One of them apologised, rezzed me and gave me most of my stuff back.

What was the point of that (especially for the one that recalled away with my only regs) but to get a count? IMO that was grefing and not just PKing (or PvPing).

Yes I have names. No I will not glorify them by sharing the names here.

Pk/PvP guys making rounds in popular spots can be annoying but its not griefing.

Pk/PvP guys always making rounds in popular areas is a result of the lack of other groups to fight. If people got out there more or there was something to get more people into the PvP aspect of the game, it would create more fights and PvP groups wouldn't be running in dungeons or anywhere with non pvpers looking for fights as often. Hell I'm anti pk and I run in dungeons in hopes of finding a red toon on a pk round.

+1

Semi-related side note: If you recalled and died in town you could not count since recalling clears your aggressor list or w/e.
As you saw, gates do NOT clear that aggressor list.... SO, if pks come up on you and you get your gate off, let them get a spell off before taking the gate and then kill yourself and report them. You want to cause them enough grief that they think twice before messing with you in the future ;p

@Gzus Just wanted to clarify that im not trying to defend my playstyle. Im doing it regardless. I know its welcomed by a lot of the shard

Just wish that word wasnt thrown around so much!

What gets me isn't the misuse of the term griefing, but rather the constant bitching and moaning from victims of this non-griefing.

If you look like a newb, walk like a newb, and talk like a newb, you're going to suffer. Get strong, get a clue. And STFU about how "bad" you have it.

This post needs to git gud

Just woke up, no coffee, 1/4 brain : warning



Last night around the vday event (imo) was a good example of good-times-UO for most people.

A thief was thieving and talking to players. I placed HC in bags, in bags, in bags and taunted them. It was mutual fun chasing them around cops and robbers style.

A couple of people were playing the flag game using other player's blade spirits. I started a silly convo with one of them. We mutually laughed together but carried on.

I got merc'd pretty hard by a PK squad. I was laughing at the damage my no-resist-having character was taking. I came back with a shiet ton of wands (on Dungeon Fairy no less... wands, fairy.. lol) and our group had a nice back and forth exchange for quite some time. "I BANG MY TAMBOURINE AT THEE!", I yelled.

From a field PvP perspective the whole thing was pretty cringy but in a funny way. Some of the PK's went down due to overwhelming odds at first. I'd have preferred not to loot them, but others did anyway. Them's the breaks though for reds, I suppose.

For most players there, this was one of their first or very seldom (large) PvP exchanges. Some were saying, "this is fun" and I hope it was for them.

BUT

I noticed one poor player that went red out there. Poor guy was having a hard time with the blade spirit + taking counts aspect. I'm sure he experienced "grief". I'd call it bewilderment as something bad was happening to you, you don't know why, and you're not sure what to do to stop it. That's frustration in a nutshell.

"Well crap, had I known that, this might not have happened" ... that's how most grief goes though. Knowledge of something used against someone's ignorance again, can create a very frustrating scenario.

I noticed something though. When he went red he was running around amongst all the players there for quite some time. People knew what happened and personally elected to not take advanta... oh wait, here comes the load, the dump, aaaand he's dead.

UO happened. Meh.

-3- was running around. That's always good. I bet they were having a laugh at the Benny Hill-ish display of the aforementioned pk/anti exchange. The lot could have killed everyone there in no time but... they didn't. I suppose the show was more enjoyable. I tried talking to them but, they're too cool for school. That's the way of the l33t though. Gosh, I hope I can be like that some day.

Anyway, didn't take long for the pk's to organize a well planned strike and wipe everybody. They sent in a blue to gate. Rooftop death and destruction. Good times.

Will others have a different view? Yeah sure. Those people are p*ssies though.

git gud

NO WAIT, I don't mean that.

What I really mean is, if you had a hard time I truly hope you'd treat it as a game that you want to get better at and do so. The next time you're more prepared and whatever side you're on, you play better and have fun.

Funny... my version of grief is when people aren't having fun here when I know they could if they'd just listen and apply.

*shrugs*


edit: you wanna talk grief... the GAME griefs me. I can't take 10 steps here anymore without going 3 tiles out of synch. I run into crap all the time, or miss teleporters. Somebody tell the game to stop griefing me.

You kinda hinted on how I treat this game. There are tons of guides telling you what to do. The reality is that its more about learning what not to do till your left with positives. Write a guild for that

the op has an answer for anything and everything. He is an example of a griefer, unable to see past his own nose; "I commit terrible acts onto others but that's not griefing, that's the game letting me do these things". Its your world , rest of us just living in it.