Control Slots for Tamed Monsters and Animals

Hail UO:R!

Having recently built my first GM Tamer, I'm finally getting used to that play style. However, my desire to detach from the norm and try something different, has brought me to a point where I feel a change is in order.

As most know, Nightmares take 2 Control Slots, whilst Dragons/Wyrms take 3. In an attempt to build a force of tamed Imps, I found they also take 2 Control Slots.
Considering they are significantly less powerful than a Nightmare, I propose that we reduce their Control Slot utilization to 1. I thought 1.5 might be good for a test, but I don't know if that's even possible and it would likely cause confusion.

In any regard, please share your thoughts on this, and please add commentary regarding any other monster or creature you can tame, that you feel requires too many Control Slots for it's level of effectiveness.

Thanks for reading and I look forward to your feedback.

the stats on an imp are alot lower than standard mares their stats are all usually below 100 the only thing of great value on an imp is its high magery, but even then all their skills are very subpar most being around 40 after u tame one,they also die very easily but yes 2 control slots for an imp is too high in my opinion. I vote for 1 control slot it would make things more intresting as far as farming taming combos go

I vote for 5 total control slots to tone down tamers a bit. Could care less what imps took up.

I haven't fought any imps here on UOR, as yet, but they can cast flamestrike, right? Maybe they're a bit weak in other areas but high magery can get out of hand really quick. Rolling around with the potential (however unlikely) for four to seven flamestrikes, e-bolts or explosions simultaneously hitting a target doesn't sound like a good thing to me. I think we can all agree that we don't want a rules change that will allow for things like insta-pwn-your-pants-off-faction-imp-tamers. I guess the consensus is that having a bunch of tamed imps isn't awesome right now but neither is having a bunch of tamed bunnies. Why do we have to balance tamed imps with dragons? It's a frikkin' dragon we're talking about!

I've always wanted a pack of dire wolves to be a force to be reckoned with but I don't see many ways to make that happen in PvM that wouldn't be unbalanced in PvP. I think the issue there is with the number of tamed creatures vs each creature's hitpoints. If you get too many they can cumulatively attack too fast to be fair in PvP. However, the creatures that you can control more of don't have the hitpoints to be durable enough for PvM. Unfortumately, any amount of control slot tampering doesn't fix this problem.

I applaud Blaise's quest for a different sort of tamer. I think a lot of people would like to see more options than the mare and two dragons combo. I think the 'safer fix' for imps would be to increase their hitpoints but I'm not sure I'd get behind that as it could make them hard for dexxers to handle alone. It seems to me, though, that variety in taming might be better served through tweaking of the pack instinct bonus or the addition of tameable species. For example, if the pack instict bonus added to the tames defense as well as offense that might open up some viable new options, especially for non-GM tamers. Elsewhere, adding the wyvern as a tameable creature has been discussed. At first glance this seemed a bad idea as the poison could be over-powered in PvP but, really, everyone carries cure potions and pets are easy to run from so I don't think they'd be percieved as worse than dragons in PvP.

I also like the idea of having more modifiable pets like swamp dragons with their barding. Understand I don't want swamp dragons 'cause they were eye-sores (and mostly useless) but what tamer wouldn't want white wyrm barding? I don't have too many ideas here but perhaps someone else would like to expand on this. If nothing else, I support giving tamers another gold sink to soften the sting of "I make 100k in a half-hour."

I agree with Tater that we should go back down to 5 control slots. Who really needs two dragons? If you answered, "me," as you read the last sentence then I'm afraid you might be too biased to make the descision yourself. Everyone else realizes that just one dragon is still better than anything their preferred template can bring to the PvM table. This could also help with variety in taming. If the drake then takes 2 control slots a lot of people would actually use them and ride a horse instead of a mare. Not much, but it is something in terms of variety.

On a side note, I always liked the idea of golems for tinkers. Not taming, I know, but it is variety. . . Also, have you tried predator hell cats, Blaise?

I haven't tried hellcats and to be honest my original thought for Imps was for training.
I personally wouldn't be opposed to 5 slots, but I don't think that will really benefit the shard as it's already a hard step for many to only have two dragons out at once. I'd be fine either way.

Back to the Imps, their mana pool is small so they'd really only be able to pull a couple of flamestrikes each before dropping to lower level spells. Sure, if they all managed to cast FS right out of the gate they can probably drop another player pretty fast but I don't think it would be that common (test plz). In the long run, dragons still totally crush on them so it's not like it would add much of an OP element. These things are just monsters and most players could drop a trainedd Imp in 1:10 the time it would take to drop a dragon. Most people aren't going to survive two dragons in a fight without a lot of kiting.

Anyway, thanks for all the feedback as it is essential to really get all the considerations on the table for testing.

yes they can cast flamestrike but if u ever had a tamer u notice that pets with high magery and high mp rarely ever open up with a flame strike they always seem to cast magic arrows buff themselves with a bless or str or int or whatever. It seems that comp AI is smarter than your pets AI. Here is an example i fight an ogre mage with 2 dragons with around 300 ish mp and like high 80s magery, on an all kill command they both fire off a magic arrows and a fireball maybe followed along with 2 flamebreaths. As soon as ogre mage is targeted it launches a combo of flamestrikes at the dragons and, my dragons would only fire off like 1 or 2 flamestrikes along with other spells. So an imp only has around 100 mp so once they get ramped up with buffs and a few lower level spells they would barely have enuff to fire off a flamestrike if they decided to do so, now reducing the control slots would let us have more imps thus improving the chances for a flamestrike or another high level spell. Also they have very low hp so it would be quite difficult to tame them and train them against other monsters so u would have to choose the type of mob u fight to train them up.

Agreed that imp and mare are nowhere near comparable and should therefore not have same # of control slots. Imps have very low hp and get wiped out easily; not so with a mare. And even though they can cast up to 7th circle spells, they're out of mana quickly at which point they're pretty useless.

About reduced control slots, I don't know. Everyone knows a solo tamer can rock all over pretty much everything. And if they run into one of the few things they can't handle alone, they call another tamer. But it has been that way and it doesn't seem to bother many people.

How much do the control slots need to even out amongst the strength of tames? A rabbit also takes one slot and isn't as close to an imp as that imp is to a nightmare. If we try to balnce it out perfectly we'll all get 536 control slots and a horse will take up 78. Andre's got a good point about the spellcasting AI, though. Perhaps spellcasting pets just need a bit better choice in spells. If you could have three imps that led with a useful spell combo that'd be better than a double size imp army. Still no dragon, though, and I worry what a well trained white wyrm might do to players if they cast with much intelligence.

I understand how things work which is why I pointed out that's it's not likely that the imps would cast a bunch of higher level spells. As far as I know, it is theoretically possible. My first thought is that imps shouldn't be comparable to the force of having a dragon. My second is for overall game balance rather than equality amongst pets, hence my concerns for PvP vs PvM balance. I don't play a tamer, though I'd like to train one at some time in the future. What this means is: A.) I' not rich, B.) I don't compete for spawn with tamers (because I couldn't hope to hang at your favorite spots) and C.) if I've encountered a tamer and it even matters to me what pet they have, one of us is trying to kill the other. Thus, my point of view concerns how your pets interact with me.

If I get in a fight with a tamer controlling a dragon it'll breath fire on me and then I'll run away unless I've got friends with me (which I never do so that's just a theoretical "not running away" possibility.) Perhaps not brave or glorious, but what can I say, that's my personal experience. Now, I've never come across an imp tamer but I can imagine. Were I to be attacked there's however many (maybe only 3) imps casting on me plus what we can only assume is a perfectly well trained character perhaps played buy a capable player. What will I do? Run, most likely. And it bears mentioning that I'll run and not recall immediately because of the aforementioned magic arrows coming at me. I wouldn't be too hip to try much other than that for fear of not being able to get a spell off before my opponents probable incoming combo. So as far as it affects me, imps are relatively as powerful as dragons. Perhaps an over-simplification, but hopefully you get my point. I do realize that imps can't compete in your realm of super-mega gold farming.

I know half the tamers that are reading this are thinking, "I'm a tamer, I don't PvP," and half are thinking, "this guy's not even a tamer he shouldn't get a say." Consider this: regardless of my ignorance, imps are already appealing enough a pet to have warranted this thread. I think at the very least they'd be an effective deterrent to other players even in small numbers. If you could control a dragon, a nightmare and 3 imps, as would align with the proposed change, you'd have the dragon to chew up spawn, the nightmare to look way cooler than non-tamers and a self-defense turret of imps to dissuade PKs from making you see grey. Maybe nobody would actually do this because dragons are still so much better but that's as many imps as you can control now while riding any mount. That's a pretty big change. Keep in mind I think you should only get one dragon anyway so why would I think you should get that plus as many imps as you can control now?

If we had 5 control slots then, by all means, tamers should get the choice to have 5 imps. Eight imps seems excesive, though. It just sounds like something used only for griefing other players because it still wouldn't be as effective for PvM as the dragons. However, I believe I misunderstood what Blaise wants out of the imps. By "training" you mean magic resist training for A^T recruits, am I right? If that's the case, just get more tamers. Hell, the imps don't even have to still be tame, right? Perhaps if you're more specific about your use someone more helpful than me will give you some new ideas.

I don't really care much as long a we don't create a new breed of super annoying PvP tamers. I just find any suggestions regarding taming changes very worrisome. If you have two dragons and we need to change the rules to make it easier there's a problem. . . I would like consideration for a "most long-winded post" badge, though.

Hah, bigger text walls than even I have drafted of late.
I get what you're saying but I disagree that they will be so powerful in a group as to rival or compare to dragons, in PvM or PvP.
Providing 1-slot Imps aren't MORE powerful for either regard, than WWs already are, I don't see it as being any different than the graphic on the screen and the hassle for the tamer of controlling more pets. It's already a handful with two (for me) let alone 6-8, but I would still try it for fun.

Also, Resist training for A^T has been done in various ways and I don't really think of ideas to hold to my chest. I like to find things to share with all, as such, if one tamer cycling a turret of Imps were an affordable and efficient method, I would offer share those findings. It would involve cycles of telling them to stop so they could med and attack again when they're juiced up. Also, the poison sucks, so it probably really wouldn't work out for training anyway. I just want to roll with a pack of little beasts that can be wicked, but ultimately, not the greatest threat from a tamer.

For the record, PvP tamers are super-annoying by default.

nerf the tamers.
limit to 1 pet. that's it. no abuse possible! :mrgreen:

Any time you put your idea out then cast aspersions on other players preferences you lose any credibility you may have had in my eyes.

Tamers are not "out of hand" here,just because you may not use them doesnt mean they are over-powered.

Try coming up with ideas that encompass everyones style of play instead of just yours.Im pretty sure I havent seen any tamer PKs killing everyone in the dungeons....maybe we should nerf magery because its way more over powered than taming.....

well i dont think hes wants/trying to reduce the control slots of dragons/mares/wyrms were just saying 2 control slots for an imp seems kinda high if that were the case scorpions and giant spiders should have 2 control slots as well or any other tameable weak monster be 2 slots

That's carrying it out to a ridiculous length that no one suggested. This is actually what I was speaking of: I imagine the current control slots per pet to be set up like this - weakest to strong pets = 1 control slot; above average strength to very strong pets = 2 control slots; strongest pets = 3 control slots. And under such a system I believe imps fall into the category of 1 slot pets.

I have a very strong feeling that isn't true at all. I'd bet dollars against dimes that anyone using imps is simply looking for something different to do and doesn't seriously think that they hold a candle to the mare/wyrm/dragon combo.

They really are overpowered though. And this is coming from someone who gave up arguing the point and converted his main into a tamer. And I've talked with other players who roll tamers that openly admit they're overpowered. It doesn't stop anyone from using the hell out of them and enjoying the rewards, but the fact remains the same.

I specifically made the subjectd "Control Slots for Tamed Monsters and Animals" in order to allow conversation of the system as a whole, to be welcome in the thread.

There is nothing desireable about taming Imps. There never has been. What I'm hoping for is to provide SOME reason to do so without it being 'a waste of time' as I'm sure many would consider it right now.

It's like saying "Don't bother making anything but a hally/tank mage for PvP" on other shards. I just want to see some options for variety that don't leave one completely disadvantaged.

Ive always been a fan of allowing tamed pets to be provoked and peaced as a balancing factor to tamers

Pvping with a dragon would be great till a provoker turns your pet against you. Especially if a pet had to be fed to calm it down before commanding it again. It woud also make proviking a viable pvp skill

Also agree! For starters, we really need to patch IN the ability to provoke mobs on players. Tack on provoking tamed mobs and we're really cooking with gas by taking the bite out of the most OP class on the shard.

But what then, of the Provo Tamer?!??!!?

I cast no aspersions. Period. If you saw any that was your own venomous imagination. If you find issue with a specific comment I made I'd be happy to explain to you what I really meant. I also never said tamers were "out of hand." I think a couple of tamers just did, though. Beyond that, I went out of my way to explain my bias. I did so because I enjoy a different style of play and whether a tamer has any amount of imps or dragons, it makes little difference to me. I also think the imps control slots are a non-point to almost everyone (meaning a change DOES NOT encompass everyones style of play.) Tamers will still use dragons so why should we make a change?

I think I've presented some decent ideas for the improvement of taming. I hadn't thought about it before but now I firmly support a revamp of the pack instict bonus. One that would that would be beneficial to tamers. As far as your idea to nerf magery, LudKrud, I'd love to hear your opinion. It seems in line with some of the other changes we've made here on UOR. In comparison to OSI we've nerfed lumberjacking and alchemy. In fact, almost all of our changes from the OSI ruleset have toned things down so why not magery? It is curious, though, that tamers get 3 more control slots than on OSI. . .

Chris said that the ability to provoke monsters onto players would probably be put in, pending staff's research into the reason it doesn't work now. I researched it myself and I wasn't able to find a single thing in any era that said you couldn't provoke onto players, so I'm pretty positive we'll see this happen. It seems common sense to me that if you can provoke onto players then their tames will also be fair game, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

The Provo Tamer has to suck royally at PvP, doesn't it? It's probably the ultimate PvM template but one of the worst for fighting.

Nothing venomous from orcs...maybe if you get bit by one as we dont brush our teeth...You said to bump the control slots down to 5.....thats almost a 30% reduction.Thats a big hit by anyones standards.I could be wrong but I think maybe WWs and drags take 2 slots on OSI and thats why they only get 5?This way at least you can have 8 wimpy guys at a time....I dont really care about it all that much,I just hate to see people talking about nerfing someone elses playstyle.

As far as magery goes when any "serious" char needs magery to be competitive then theres a problem.Just like the hally mages on SA,you should be able to succeed without being just like everyone else instead of a cookie-cutter.

I have absolutely no idea how you would make magery less useful though......lol

Part of the reason tamers are 'overpowered', if they indeed are, is because there are not 2000 people farming and hunting dragons and dragon spawns. Back in era, it wasn't easy to replace a dragon because you had to find a spawn and then hold it long enough from griefers/hunters/pks to actually sucessfully tame a dragon. On a free shard such as this, theres no where near as much competition and therefore its far easier to pop to a spawn and grab a dragon or two.

As for a tamer/provoker. I suppose a tamer could take music and provoke instead of some magery skills if they wanted to provoke their dragon to attack people instead of saying all kill. The big counter to pvp tamers, however, is music I believe. Make it so people can provoke and/or peace pets. When provoked or peaced, there should be some reason a tamer can't just instantly spam "all kill" and counter it.