AFK Gump Response Time Change Proposal

The current response time for the AFK gump is 2 minutes. In the last week, that has caused my recall miner to get jailed 4 times. 2 times for feeding/letting my dogs out, 1 for using the restroom (Numero dos), and 1 for checking the ribs on the grill - not once due to [effectively] unattended macro'ing. The majority of the time i'm actively watching the screens while working on the computer.

Because of this, I recommend changing the AFK gump response time to be more accomodating to adult lifestyles (which heavily represent the player base) - to do this, the time allowed for the initial AFK gumps would be increased, with successive reductions when the gump is failed. For example:

Initial allowed AFK gump response time: 10 minutes
After the first AFK gump failure: 5 minutes
After the second AFK gump failure: 3 minutes
After the third AFK gump failure: 2 minutes (staying at this level for following failures)

As an additional modification, the AFK gump rate could be increased to help offset the outlying farmer who runs unattended and is blessed by the RNGods. However, I don't think that's truly necessary.

I feel this would encourage more player activity and develop rules that fall more closely in line with the player base (and not with our teenage selves back in the 90's). We're not trying to take advantage of the system, but we are trying to maintain a good work/life/fun balance - I think this would help that balance.

Tagging recently active merchant players for input: @LanDarr @Patek @Hydrox @RIN @Ragnar Lothbrok @NerK @Duke Cannon @merlin8666 @Witchcraft

AFK = Away From Keyboard. Feeding the dogs and taking a crap are AFK. You need a stop macro hotkey.

Two minutes really is plenty of time if you're at your computer, imho.

My very self serving response would be to agree with you...

BUT....

with all things considered and the way in which I could abuse it... gotta go with the "Stop The Macro" option


I do all those things you mention and sometimes I stop the macro and sometimes I forget... the two minute limit ensures that I pay closer attention. If I knew I had TEN minutes to respond, I would get very lazy and take more risk in not stopping the macro, and would probably get jailed more often.. cause 10 minutes is never as long as you think it is and I would attempt to do more things in that kind of window

@Jill Stihl Yours is a fair argument, and truth is the change would mostly apply to players who enjoy the crafting/merchant aspect of the game, most of which have several vendors, and run multiple farmers concurrently.

Some situational considerations: If a child starts crying in pain, an urgent phone call comes in, food timer goes off, or the taco bell you had earlier catches up with you suddenly.. taking the time to stop macro on 3 accounts is something you're not focused on.

Maybe an increase for the initial timer of 5 instead of 10 would be more appropriate - but IMHO 2 minutes is too short even for a fully-attended player with one account running. To your argument and notes on the definition of AFK.. I can still be at my keyboard but be distracted by kids running in, wife needing immediate attention, or other life activities happening for longer than 2 minutes. On another toon, I have been jailed while at the computer - I had a resource-gathering macro running while working an especially complex problem in excel and just happened to miss the gump. I don't believe that would've happened if it was a 5 minute window, and I don't necessarily see a 5-minute window as something that could be capitalized upon to create an unfair advantage..

I'm just making the argument that a slightly larger buffer before penalizing a resource-gathering player may be more appropriate, considering. My RL work involves the tweaking of systems to maximize efficiencies, so I just thought i'd throw in my two cents here to see what others thought.

I say 2 minutes is time enough.

If you go take a crap with the macro going, then you are certainly AFK resource gathering. Textbook example of what the gump hopes to prevent.

My suggestion is to set up a stop macro hotkey, that way it will take you less time to stop the macro than to, say recall to safety if you were farming gazers, in those unexpected situations.

I myself thought about a longer afk gump time also , but as of more than lets say 3 minutes , it would just promote afk play in the game. This shard you can do ALOT afk that u could not do back in the day to help us as far as to get to the game play of not building certain skills attended . i have only been jailed one time since i started , i have learned not to AFK macro if i cant see the gump pop up on screen to play " which one of these things do not belong here " "now its time to play our game"

I have to admit some ignorance here - I'm only really familiar with the resource-collection aspects of the AFK gump (mining and lumberjacking), I have yet to do any automated vendor selling, rare-collecting, or other gump-worthy items - so i'm not aware of the potential for these to be taken advantage of with a longer gump.

I don't think the argument is whether taking a crap is AFK - it obviously is, unless you play on a laptop and bring it with you - and hey, more power to ya. The argument is in the principle/purpose of the gump and the pragmatic result of its implementation.

Yes, i could make a stop macro hotkey, press it three times before doing ANYTHING away from the keyboard, then figure out where i need to resume it when I return, and resume it 3x. I understand the current system, which is what my argument suggests a change to.

What would the results of a longer gump window be? Potentially.. Increased resource supplies and lower prices for resources, leading to easier transitions for young players to skill up, more BOD fulfillment/item availability, lower prices on BOD items, slight income shift in favor of gatherers who play more, more active vendor market, higher running average for online shard players, lower average availability of resources to manual resource gatherers (one of the bigger downsides, imo).Again, just some thoughts.. i don't think the system broke by any means, but give another minute or two to us ADHD folks to stop looking at squirrels .

I also think the base cost to run a vendor is very high and discourages vendor marketing over forum auctioning..

.

The main issue is wealth creation without actually being “playing”.

Longer afk gump times, as @LanDarr mentions, could incentivise more people will roll the dice on being jailed.

@Gideon Jura Trying to stay objective here.. yes, i agree - IF the purpose of the current system is explicitly to completely prevent any unattended resource gathering whatsoever, then it is working [more or less] perfectly as-is. HOWEVER, if the purpose is actually to prevent extended long-term AFK resource gathering to LIMIT extreme unfair advantages to players running said macros, while CONCURRENTLY encouraging development and utilization of resource-gathering automation macros by the player community, then that is where the system is not perfect and argument for change lies.

The variable i'm specifically questioning is that realistic unfair gain that someone could achieve with a gump changed from 2 to 5 minutes. Okay, It allows them the ability to do more other things, whether on another account or in RL - instead of just taking a piss, they can now grab a beer and take a shit - but it does not allow them to run the macro overnight or all day while at work. Hence the argument and suggested change - the issue is not unattended resource-gathering, per se. The issue is the long-term running of these macros by players not tending to them to any extent.

@Pirul - You mentioned rolling the dice on jail time. That doesn't really apply here - for long-term AFK gatherers, they would be rolling that dice regardless (they'll miss a 2 minute gump as much as a 5 or 10). So the risk being taken is only by the player who is briefly stepping away from the keyboard. Is that really going to have a tangible effect on wealth creation? I'm open to your thoughts.. I just don't see it.

I'd like to hope the resource gathering automation macros would not be encouraged. I can't see how they are a positive for anyone except those running or selling them.

Of course they are going to exist and be used but I don't believe 'we' should be making it even easier to do so. This is meant to be a game we play, not hit a hotkey then harvest GP while watching TV.

This is accurate.

Therein lies the pickle. You’re assuming the shard encourages “development and utilization of resource-gathering automation macros”. Now @Chris would need to clarify this, but from the long talks I’ve held with him on the subject (the last one having been yesterday), it is my impression that the shard does not punish automation as long as it does not create an unfair advantage. Since the implementation of the afk gump there was a heated debate of what the timer should be. Some people said 20 seconds, some people said 5 minutes. Subjectively, and taking into account the shard’s best interest, Telamon settled at 2 minutes, with decreasing time for every strike (now, I’m not sure if this is still active).

I don't disagree regarding the intent of the game - it was not designed to be another farmville, where everyone just runs the client but no one really plays. That has little to do with my argument here. However, I do disagree on your perspective of automation development. UO was one of the first MMORPG's developed. Unlike most of today's MMO's (e.g. World of Warcraft), UO allows players to develop macros to automate the "grind" associated with MMO gameplay. I think that automation, in addition to an open world/character development and player housing, make UO what it is, to the extent players continue to play it 20 years later when it's graphics are grossly outdated. There are many on this shard who appreciate the automation and enjoy the development of these systems - in effect, this is their style of playing. Further, those players facilitate a much more streamlined environment for the more traditional playstyles you are referencing by providing armor, decor, boats, weapons, bulk reagents, etc.

Additionally, I have yet to hear a tangible valid argument that "harvesting GP" is really something that can occur with the extension of the AFK gump timer. I only started playing on this shard in November, so again, i'm open to exploration of scenarios where that would actually be an issue. From my experience thus far, however, i'd argue that the profitability of running these macro's is minimal as compared to more traditional farming. I can NET (after selling all goods and paying vendor fees) probably 25k/hr using 3 accounts, whereas a provo tamer (who, by the way, AFK GM'ed their entire template) can make 50k/hr base + items they sell. Perhaps I have a bias in that I don't simply harvest resources, I'm utilizing them to craft a large multitude of items sold on vendors at inexpensive prices in ocllo (shameless plug, located one screen SE of the bank) that provide a large amount of value to young players. With the daily operating cost somewhere around 4k to have the vendors running, the profits aren't as high as many assume.

Edit: @Pirul just saw your post, and I appreciate your input and the info on the backstory with Telamon. We're on common ground there.. If it's just an intent by the shard developers/maintainers to minimize automated resource gathering in its entirety, I can accept that decision. However, i'd follow that with the question of why AFK reagent-buying macros do not trigger the same mechanism.

Reg buying....or any sort of buying has also been heavily debated. The main reason for not gumping it is because it is a gold sink and does not automatically generate wealth.

From another thread, but I consider the post relevant:

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Good input @Pirul, helps to see their intent. Two thoughts there:

1. Resource harvesting is as much wealth creation as reg buying, assuming that regs can be sold at a profit. You can harvest resources for personal use as much as you can buy reagents for personal use. On the flipside, when macroing either for the intent to sale, both don't realize profit until sold - whether via vendor or auction - and both have front-end costs associated with them. But, I digress on that argument - i think reg buying is good as it stands.

2. "Profit macros" - again referencing my above posts, the realistic profitability (specifically here, the profit difference attainable with an increased Gump time) is minimal. If it was 100k per hour per account and anyone could do it, sure. But these systems take work: 1. Macro development, 2. Farming characters trained/equipped, 3. Vendor location secured, layout established, 4. Pricing strategies refined, 5. Marketing, 6. Vendor inventory management/upkeep. And the profits are relatively low compared to other farming methods. But yeah, maybe guys running super efficient fishing macros are the ones doing so while watching tv, then posting loads of gear for sale on the forums and reeling in ridiculously high profits, and that's who the bump is trying to curtail.

To expedite the argument, i think the conclusion lies in the balance between "we want to encourage active players and discourage players running the game in the background purely for profit while doing other things" and "we want to support merchant-style crafter/harvester players so as to not overly regulate their activities". Since most players fall in the first group, the balance trends towards a lower Gump timer. I'm just providing some arguments based on my own empirical evidence pointing towards a small failure on behalf of the latter group.

On that note, time for some beer and RL night fishing free of gumps

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Assign first one to a hotkey

Name it STOP_Idletime

Code:

// macro presumes user has at least 70.1 magery
// change castspellaction lines to use item by type (recall scroll) when applicable
// or use a runebook (blessed hopefully)
Assistant.Macros.MacroCastSpellAction|32
Assistant.Macros.WaitForTargetAction|30
Assistant.Macros.AbsoluteTargetAction|0|0|1076507513|65|129|0|7956
// re-target your own rune ^^^^^
Assistant.Macros.IfAction|4|0|the spell fizzles
Assistant.Macros.PauseAction|00:00:00.6000000
Assistant.Macros.HotKeyAction|0|Play: STOP_Idletime
Assistant.Macros.EndIfAction
Assistant.Macros.IfAction|4|0|that location is blocked
Assistant.Macros.PauseAction|00:00:00.6000000
Assistant.Macros.MacroCastSpellAction|32
Assistant.Macros.WaitForTargetAction|30
Assistant.Macros.AbsoluteTargetAction|0|0|1076908983|77|129|0|7956
// re-target your own backup rune ^^^^^
Assistant.Macros.EndIfAction
Assistant.Macros.PauseAction|00:00:01
Assistant.Macros.SpeechAction|0|48|3|ENU|5|48|2|0|113|153|guard bank
Assistant.Macros.SpeechAction|0|48|3|ENU|5|48|2|0|113|153|guard bank
Assistant.Macros.HotKeyAction|0|Organizer Agent-5
// will move items in agent list from player to bank when set up
Assistant.Macros.PauseAction|00:00:15
Assistant.Macros.HotKeyAction|0|Play: hide until hidden

hide until hidden macro

Name it hide until hidden

Code:

!Loop
Assistant.Macros.UseSkillAction|21
Assistant.Macros.PauseAction|00:00:01
Assistant.Macros.IfAction|4|0|you have hidden yourself well
Assistant.Macros.HotKeyAction|1083|
Assistant.Macros.EndIfAction

I don't get this. If you're stepping away from your computer - just stop the macro.

This is a simple risk vs reward equation.

Is the risk of getting jailed for unnatended macroing/resource gathering worth the reward of a few more ingots?