Topic to discuss the ideas for use of the Justice Virtue Ideas already considered focused specifically on 'Thieves' but really Justice doesn't pertain specifically to the crime of thievery, but rather correcting an imbalance of fairness. Anytime somebody has been wronged, Justice seeks to correct it to make things 'fair' again. Please discuss ideas civilly and perhaps we can find common ground to help staff understand what we the people would support and want? My idea is thus: 1) gain Justice by killing perma grey thieves, Murderers, or high level Red NPC's 2) limit Justice gain to 2-3 gains per day. Make it take 3-4 weeks of daily 'justice' farming to reach max level 3) at max limit Justice level, character can sacrifice all Justice points, for a 'justified' scroll that will make the player 'justified' for one hour i) effects of justification scroll would take 5 minutes to go into place to ensure players don't try to 'bait' somebody into attacking them ii) once character is under full effect of scroll their is a caption above their head stating 'justified' iii) if the player 'agresses' ANYBODY (red, blue, grey) while justified, they lose their justification immediately. they can only retaliate, not initiate combat. iv) effects of justification are that if a player is killed, the agressor(s) are immediately suffer 200 damages (distributed across all recent agressors), lethal poison, and paralyzed (insta death) while the 'justified' player if rezzed will suffer deadly poison until effects of justice are gone (balance required for justification. so justified player will have to tend to health if rezzed after dying while under effect of Justice) v) justification can be used 3 times during the 1 hour period with a cooldown of 10 mins after it is invoked 4) after a justification scroll is used it will take the player 3-4 weeks to gain enough justification points to attain another scroll 5) scrolls cannot be transferred (you cannot 'farm' justice on one character and transfer to your thief/pk alt) the character who gains the Justice is the only one who can use the scroll What are your thoughts?
So basically, if you kill enough thieves and murderers, you get to be PK-proof for part of an hour? I think I'm missing the purpose of this.
Hwy Dal, as started in opening this is to discuss ideas on what the virtue should do. If you don't like my proposal, that's ok, but at least come to the table with something more than being clueless Yes essentially my idea would make you somewhat PK proof for an hour, but not allow you to use it as a shield and pick fights. Players would be able to know if the person they are engaging is justified or not. I welcome any other ideas on functions that would fit the description of justice. We had previously discussed a system that targets one class of players (thieves) but the virtue of justice really encompasses more than just thievery. So ideas man? What ideas can Wolff mage bring?
Just wanted to understand what the goal was, and how the payoff fit in with that. In this case, I don't follow how being PK-proof fits in with your goal. My .02... I like the way you propose for the gaining of Justice virtue. But the payoff, I'd think, could be better aligned. For example, what if gaining enough Justice gave you some Forensic-like skills. That is, at "Seeker of Justice", you could use a Forensic-type skill a couple of times per week and see if a player was in the Theives' guild, was perma-grey at the moment, etc. I realize this would trample on the actual Forensic skill, albeit in limited use. Another idea... what if this forensic-like skill could tell you if another character on someone's account was currently a thief or murderer? For example, I am out hunting in the dungeons and I see "Jimmy BigBallz" approach. He's blue, appears to be a bard, but I use my Justice skill on him and it says "This player has close ties with 1 member of the thieves guild and one murderer named Jimmy PKsAlot". And then I can decide if, in the name of Justice, I should slay this supposedly innocent character, who is being piloted by a non-innocent person. And, hell, what if that action didn't even turn me gray or give me a murder count, due to the virtue? One thing to keep in mind would be the potential for abuse by the very folks you wish to bring to justice. Like the bounty system, in which anyone with a bounty on their head, and less than 5 short-term murders, can just turn their own head in to take the bounty, you'd need to ensure this system wasn't abusable by thieves and murderers just macroing it up with their alts. Realistically, it's next to impossible to just keep killing waves upon waves of thieves and murderers for 3 to 4 weeks, outside of just doing it to one's guildmate or alt.
Heck, what if you could actually turn a perma-gray thief to actual gray, to everyone, via this skill? I.E., you are "making their crimes known" to the citizenry. Would be a nice deterrent to thievery at major banks. And likely has some flavor to it as well. If some random person accused someone else of being a thief, it carries some weight. But if Jupiter, known thief-slayer, shouts loudly at the Britain Bank that Beverly is a known thief and hasn't yet seen justice from a prior theft, then that would likely carry much weight with the citizenry.
On production shards, Justice was gained by killing Red players. Last hit took the cake. Benefit was: You could offer to "protect" players at Champion spawns, and if they accepted, you had a chance to receive a copy of any Powerscroll they were awarded. This could likely be adapted to work similarly for direct platinum rewards, but it never struck me as a very intuitive or suitable use of the virtue. Dalavar's suggestion to visibly flag perma-grey thieves, on the other hand, sounds intriguing. Especially if members of the thieves' guild also contributed to the Justice virtue when slain, as mentioned earlier in the thread. That way, even if someone abused his own characters to "macro" Justice, all he could use it for would be making Britannia a safer place. 'can't see much harm in that, and it might be an incentive for thieves to play smart, rather than use the skill to annoy people.
The scroll of justice should give extra power for every grey and red in the area. you vs 1 red = 125% skills and stat increase. you vs 2 reds (have to be in the same screen or two as you = 150% skills and stat increase you vs gank squad (4 reds) = 200% skill and stat increase Now that's justice!
My own idea is very simple. Justice is gained by killing perma greys and using its powers allows you to see perma greys for a time, or better yet seeing any thief guild member.
A lot of this sounds largely biased. If you want to catch thieves, UO already provides 2 mechanics to do this. Forensics and Stealing. Thieves lose at least 200 points of skill to be able to steal (minimum, since most have hiding stealthing or other associated skills), why should any leet pvper be able to detect them because they macro killed their red alt or thief?
Yeah I have to admit the previous discussion around this virtue focused primarily on only one category of villainy (thieves) where as the concept of Justice really is far more encompassing. It would be nice to see Justice do something. I like pieces of the ideas so far, but most of them have focused on thieves or on actions that might ultimately just cause drama. Dalavar's got some good ideas, but I think the mentality of too many would just fall into libels and slander being thrown against players "So and so has a red named XXXX and I know it!" Wises' concept of increased power is interesting, but could also be abused, if reds are 'hunting' with a blue player, they would essentially have a blue megaboss to stomp on other red parties. Perhaps another thought is that we could somehow incorporate the Court of Truth at Yew? Perhaps we could put the worthless Order guards thoroughout the land to use? If a follower of Justice is targeted by a negative action (theft by a thief guild member, murder by a pk with 10+ murders, corpse looting of a blue) then they can go to Court of Truth and say "I demand Justice" at which point they'll get a list of names of all characters meeting the criteria who have negatively targeted the person. They select a name, and that character is then 'marked' so that all blue/grey creatures will aggro them at a more heightened level until the 'marked' player is killed. So if a 'marked' PK runs by a pack of order guards near Compassion, or if they are fighting you at Balrons, they will always be the favored target of the monsters until justice is served (i.e. like with thieves, once dead, the mark of Justice will be removed). This I think could encompass all negative actions and wouldn't just be biased to 'thieves/pks' even a so called 'innocent' blue who unwittingly looted your blue corpse could be affected by the mark of Justice.
Howdy, 1. I think the effect is too complicated. What about this instead: Justice can be invoked once per month for each level of justice. It atrophies the same as the other virtues. Once invoked it's good for one hour. During the hour your spells can't be interrupted and you can't be paralyzed. Faction exception: if you are in a faction, the above only applies to mobs and players who are not in a faction. You can't invoke justice if you're red. Justice is cancelled if you go red. 2. Killing tames or housebound mobs should cancel and reduce your justice. Regards, Wil
I love the simplicity! How about gains for this virtue? killing pks, kiling thieves of course. But what if credits could be earned once per day by being pk'd? It fits with the concept of justice I think. Or how about you only get justice if you report the pk??
I don't think the suggestions were really biased against the "profession", if you consider it as such. In case you steal mostly worthwhile items, you want to get the hell out afterwards anyway - so it's not a big deal to reset the perma flag, before you return to your business with a new disguise. This suggestion mostly gets in the way of thieves baiting fights with unsuspecting players and general harassment, such as stealing reagents and bandages (usually from new players). We can probably agree that at least the latter is blatant asshattery, and giving people a more efficient option to intervene would not be detrimental to the overall situation. Direct alteration of combat mechanics (as suggested by Jupiter and Wil), on the other hand, would be a recipe for disaster. The mention of the bounty system, however, was fairly brilliant. I think the Justice virtue could tie into it perfectly as follows: Use Justice on a bounty board / tavern keeper / town crier A system message provides you with the rough location of an online player who has a bounty on his head, selected at random from the 5 highest bounties (currently logged in and alive). Example messages: "A wanted criminal was spotted south-east of Yew!" "There are rumours of a criminal hiding in the Dungeon Wrong." "If you are brave enough, search the land to the north of the Shrine of Humility." Use Justice on a player mobile A system message clues you in on whether the target has a bounty on his head. Example messages: "No doubt, you have seen this ugly mug on wanted signs throughout the land!" (high bounty) "The dubious figure seems to match a description on the bounty board." (lower bounty) "For all you know, this person is as innocent as you are." (no bounty) This could create a nice little diversion - complete with conflict between competing bounty hunters, as they may well end up being sent to the same area. To make this more viable, players should no longer be informed of bounties placed on their heads. That way, if they're not displayed among the top ranking bounties on the board, they have no reason to try and cheat the system by handing their own heads in. (Of course there is still the option to use Justice on your own characters, but well.. at least you might end up suiciding over 2gp. That's a form of justice, too.) And if a blue is hunted for his bounty, he can place one on the bounty hunter in turn, only adding to the fun.
Thanks for the input wasilin! Yeah I was afraid my suggestions would be too complicated, too easily abused, and directly impact others. I'm glad there are better ideas than mine! I'd say the "enhanced" bounty board is a really great idea to follow. Also what about percentage based increases for bounties at different levels of the virtue? 10%, 15%, 20%. So if you kill and turn in a murderer's head you would get an added tip to your bounty? Killing a blue player should always significantly decrease your justice short term red counts should always reduce justice to zero Does that sound appropriate?
You mean a way to store my bounty on an alternate player, and then bring them to justice an earn interest on my bounty money? Sign me up for that! Really though, anything that makes someone insta-die for attacking you just because you murdered your red-alt a few times for some justice is just too off base for me. I think gaining justice for killing thieves is entirely appropriate. However, I don't think you should have any special magical power because you have a little bit of justice virtue, magical anti-pk abilities, or magical thief-turning-grey abilities. The most reasonable thing that comes to mind to me, is allowing someone with justice to increase the short term counts on a murderer if they kill them, by some amount (probably a multiplier of their current short terms). Since almost every single red here just macros off their counts anyway. The downside, is that you can just freely farm justice so this defeats the entire purpose of giving any real benefit to this virtue. I can't think of a single way that you could allow something like this without justice being exploited. If it's IP restricted, then people will just kill their friends, etc etc. I would like to see these systems fleshed out, I am always interested in playing with new mechanics, but I still prefer to keep a level fair playing field here.
That sounds like a nice idea, at first, but can be abused by players. Say I kill my alt, give a count and place a bounty of 100k. Then I can kill the character with the bounty, and turn his head in for 120k (including the 20% bonus from Justice). It would allow for gold duping, basically. My proposal was specifically focused on facilitating bounty hunts. It's quite possible the target would have murdered in the past (hence the bounty), but not enough to be Red. Whether or not the bounty hunter wants to exact justice under these conditions should be left to personal taste and choice, rather than punished by the system that brought him there in the first place. If the "victim" was blue, there is the option to place a bounty on the bounty hunter, so his colleagues have a reason to bring him to justice. This would not really be a blue=good / red=bad thing, perhaps with the exception of gaining Justice in the first place. It's a little more complicated than that.. and I actually don't see a reason why red players should not be able to hand in heads to a Chaos guard in Buc's Den. Head is head and dead is dead.
I don't PvP on UOR, but I'm not a fan of the PvP-related ideas like short-term invulnerability or super-strength. Too radical of a change to the core mechanics of UO. The super-detective skills don't really excite me either. Steps on the toes of Forensics. I really like this idea. You of course can game the system, as you mention, to gain Justice in this world of multi-accounts. I don't think that's much of a problem, though. With virtue decay, I think you'll find only the most dedicated red-slayers would bother keeping their Justice virtue high. (to carry this idea over to thieves, their criminal timer on death could be increased)
