My thoughts on the new mining changes

Discussion in 'Renaissance Discussion' started by Paradigm, Mar 18, 2014.

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  1. Paradigm

    Paradigm Active Member

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    Is anyone else concerned this could lead to a rich get richer situation? I see a lot of people saying you can still buy ingots at the store but that means it costs min 540k per GM smith + the inconvenience of working all of the vendors up to 999 and the time it takes to respawn the vendors. I'm not concerned.. I have my GMs, but I feel bad for the other guys who don't or haven't come to the server yet.


    It's cool spawning a boss randomly when I mine, but not everyone can have a boss killing team standing by on another account to swoop in and kill this guy. Everyone seems to think that recall mining isn't era accurate, but neither is having a 7x tamer on another account idling. [full disclosure: I had two uo accts in 1997]

    So a new players option is to just run from these when they pop up or buy the ingots?

    I am very interested to see what happens to the BS bod profession. There are many crafting changes in the works and I hope that something gives. Tailoring was so much easier than BS before, and now there is another hurdle.
    I turned in 100 iron bods this weekend. I received 30k (maybe), some axes no one will buy and only 6 bods above shadow iron. That is pretty rough. I enjoy a good challenge, but there are only so many times I can do this before I give up the dream. At vendor rate, that is over 160k gold ingots used!

    Don't attack me, I don't care.. I will adjust to the changes or leave the server. People want to insult me and other recall miners, but I don't hear you complaining about razor when you AFK macro'd all of your characters w/o gump. I am just concerned that the way I enjoy this game is in jeopardy. I fear that if no one new enters in to the BS bod arena, we will never hit the rewards we all want to see.

    ps. for those of you saying to mine by hand.. go find time in your adult life to mine 250k iron ingots, GM three smiths and start flipping bods.. then get back to me.
    Paradigm, Mar 18, 2014
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  2. SexMachine

    SexMachine Member

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    It takes a combination of magery and mining to spawn the bosses if your just walking around mining you wont have to worry about them.
    SexMachine, Mar 18, 2014
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  3. Dalavar

    Dalavar Well-Known Member
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    I do worry the monster spawns will negatively impact new players mining, and that concerns me. I don't think it's as much inconvenience as you think to buy up NPCs to 999 iron. Which in fact is a further detriment to newer players.

    For the BS bods, your experience with those 100 flips is not out of the ordinary. In fact, I average about 8 per 100 that are above Shadow (this is over many hundreds of flips I've recorded). So maybe you got a little unlucky, but not outrageously so. It's a long, slow process, but that is part of why I like it.
    Dalavar, Mar 18, 2014
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  4. Basoosh

    Basoosh Well-Known Member
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    I don't think it's that hard - buying the ingots can be fully automated. I'm kind of surprised more people haven't already jumped in on this market, as people have proven that they are willing to pay more than 8g for ingots when in bulk.

    To my understanding, they should only appear for recall mining. New players shouldn't run into them. If they are appearing for new players, I think this should be re-evaluated.

    Yep, agreed. It takes a special kind of crazy to go after those upper tier blacksmith rewards, they are ultra, ultra, rare and tough to get. You people know who you are!

    I am a 3-account recall miner. My take on this patch is the people that got hurt are the established recall miners, like you and me. The trolls are basically an AFK gump that you must respond to in ~5 seconds.

    New players looking to manually mine or build a smith are the big winners this patch. Manual miners won't have as much competition from the recall miners and shouldn't run into the bosses at all. Training a smith to GM should now require less ingots due to the 50% fail recovery. And since there will be no change to ingot prices, this just makes GM smithing easier for non-recall miners.

    I agree with you that this patch sucks for us recall miners, but I disagree that new players are going to see any negative impact. As far as I can see, they win in this patch.
    Basoosh, Mar 18, 2014
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  5. Paradigm

    Paradigm Active Member

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    Dal, thanks for weighing in. I just noticed you put up an Ag Hammer for 4m. That will put you so far ahead of the curve that you can afford to *lose* 100k gold per 100 iron bod turn ins until you hit another amazing reward. In addition, I think you are far above the curve already.

    My issue is getting more people in to the bod system.

    1.5m to create three GM smiths + a net loss of min 100k per 100 iron bods done.. until you hit an insane reward.

    vs

    Collecting cotton and filling small cloths (generating cash) until you hit the Spined (greater drop rate that all decent smith rewards) you need, then sell for 400-1m per dye.

    -----------

    I feel like this is a really awkward situation and I really don't know the answer to it. We can't change the cost of items. Buckler will always be 10 ingots. We can change the failure rate and smelt rate, but it will always be 200 ingots for a 20 buckler. The current reward matrix and bod drop rate do not reflect how difficult it is to get 200 ingots. That difficulty just increased. At the rate required to achieve good bods, we will have to resort to buying them. This puts a 20 buckler at costing 1800 but yielding 200g + an axe.

    If the goal is a long and slow process to a Valorite Hammer, then we need to make it possible. How many Val bods does the server have to obtain before the server has all 6 pcs plus the large? Even if we all banded together.. How many iron turn ins is that? The server has been going for over a year now with people 'abusing' recall mining and we have.. 3 pcs of Phoenix Armor and Valorite bods are basically priceless.
    Paradigm, Mar 18, 2014
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  6. Paradigm

    Paradigm Active Member

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    Basoosh, good call on my oversight. The 50% failure redux will certainly help the newer players. Only time will tell if the few rare new players that mine 20k ingots before they move on to farming monsters can quell the hunger of players like Dal and I who need basically as many ingots as we can possibly get.
    Paradigm, Mar 18, 2014
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  7. Chris

    Chris Renaissance Staff
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    The opposite is actually true. With players taking advantage of profit macros that generate an endless stream of ingots this actually damages the market for new players to sell their ingots. We want to encourage players to pay attention, whether they are mining by hand or macro mining. Not create an environment that encourages players to start 3 macro miners and then remote monitor them from work or their phone.

    Someone who is attending their miners could simply walk away from the monster and recall. These monsters might be much for a non combat miner to fight but they are not hard to escape from. Players are already encouraged to make combat miners to farm stone/sandstone/marble ingots. Dealing with a slightly beefy troll with 40 magery shouldn't give any player, new or old any trouble. Secondly these only spawn when a combination of magic and mining is used. I've yet to actually find a new player recall mining, so I doubt this will be an issue.

    This is a common assumption that most recall miners have approached me with, without their ability to generate hundreds of thousands of easy ingots, how would they turn in hundreds of BOD's. First off we cannot design the server to support macroing for profit with little or no effort. Every BOD turned in provides a cash and item reward for the smith. So you are rewarded for your work and time. Secondly no one is forcing players to "churn" BOD's just so you have the chance at a better BOD. Attempting to complete BOD's after patch 50 will actually be easier because you are only burning 50% of the resources (ingots) when failing to craft an item.

    We cannot look into adjusting the drop rates of smithing BOD's at any point until we make sure that we have a level playing field for all players. Fishermen have survived since the first day of this server fighting sea serpents for their rewards. They simply add archery or magery to their templates.

    We are planning on working BOD's into the clean up Britain system as a way to allow players to re-cycle BOD's they do not have any interest in filling or selling.

    To summarize the staff has been careful monitoring the recall miners for quite a while, and while most posts and discussions seem to focus on "if I cannot get endless ingots, its impossible to have a smith and fill BOD's" argument what we have found is that a large amount recall miners are hoarding massive amounts of ore and ingots. If the ingots were so in demand as everyone is claiming, then why are the ingots/ore hoarded on an epic scale.

    No one is forced to have 3 gm blacksmiths, no one is forced to complete hundreds of BOD's. These are rewarding professions sure, but they are optional. A new player can easily earn a gm blacksmith by mining, crafting and selling his goods to vendors. This patch made that much easier by greatly reducing the amount of ingots lost when failing to craft and item which should cut the amount of ingots needed to make a GM smith by 20-30%.

    Secondly. Our goal is to ensure that players are playing, not running profit macros. Fishing has had this mechanic for a long time and players have adapted and enjoyed it. Recall mining had reached a point where players were actually reporting it more and more often because the recall miners were strip mining areas such as the Ocllo new player dungeon, the Minoc mines and most caves around the world. Obviously this makes life as a new player a headache as you have to watch robots strip mine the area you are trying to mine with a pack horse. It got so bad that we had to designate the Ocllo mining areas as no recall zones.

    For us to continue to improve the BOD systems, smelting recovery rates, crafting failure rates, and implement additional BOD systems we need to make sure the world is on an even playing field. Not simply divided into two groups. Players who run massive recall gathering operations and players who play the game traditionally. As we move to ensure that players are not only attended but actually paying attention to their recall mining we can feel more comfortable adjusted the drop rates of top tier BOD's and implementing new and rewarding BOD systems. We can reduce the amount of resources lost while filling bods and smelting non exceptional items.

    If the gravy train of easy ingots is going to continue for any player, they will need to start watching their macros closely, and maybe not running 2,3 miners at once.

    Some pictures to illustrate my point.
    Mining3.png
    Mining2.png
    mining 1.png
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2014
    Chris, Mar 18, 2014
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  8. Paradigm

    Paradigm Active Member

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    Thanks for the post Chris! I suppose my error was looking at this through my personal experience. I run one miner while I do my bods and I never have more than 100k iron on hand at any given time. I sure wish those were pics of my house :eek:

    I have high hopes for the new crafting changes. I am not freaking out, I just wanted to share my thoughts and see what others were experiencing. Often times, it is hard to know how you feel about something with out seeing the entire picture. It is possible that the era of the recall miner will be nothing but a distant memory and I will have just as much luck hand mining and reaching tier 1 rewards as I do with tailoring.
    Paradigm, Mar 18, 2014
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  9. Chris

    Chris Renaissance Staff
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    You made some good points and I wanted to take time to explain them. We want to make a long list of changes to the BOD system but in order to do so we want to make sure all 100% of our players feel they are on a fair playing field.

    New players shouldn't have to aspire to be recall miners to earn top tier rewards or bulk order deeds.

    Players have brought to us a variety of good issues, such as smelting recovery rates, failure resource burn rates, and the chances to get top tier BOD's. As we work on these issues in the next few patches we are going to make sure we balance the reduced need for ingots by making sure that players who want to use a computer controlled macro to collect ingots, pay close attention to their macros.
    Chris, Mar 18, 2014
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  10. Chris

    Chris Renaissance Staff
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    The chance of a new player seeing a monster spawn from mining is almost 0%. A combination of magic and mining is required to spawn a troll.

    These monsters were designed to be about as a tough as the Revenant or Harpy Mini boss which new players, with some skill and practice can easily defeat.
    Chris, Mar 18, 2014
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  11. Chris

    Chris Renaissance Staff
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    Also keep in mind that the new trolls actually have some pretty nice loot.

    Peculiar meat, gold, items, platinum coins, and a chance for a very rare monster statue.

    Cave Troll
    Mountain Troll
    Forest Troll
    Chris, Mar 18, 2014
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  12. Paradigm

    Paradigm Active Member

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    I feel better hearing this. I was that new player last Sept/Oct. Given the current system, I do not see a way around it. I am looking forward to a change.

    I think it is unfair to show a pic of infinite ingots in two players houses and say that this eliminates players arguments regarding demand. This a game of hoarding and who knows what that players motives were. If that player posted that he was selling those ingots, they would be gone in an afternoon.
    Paradigm, Mar 18, 2014
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  13. Faber

    Faber Well-Known Member
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    Those screenshots are gnarly.
    Faber, Mar 18, 2014
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  14. Dalavar

    Dalavar Well-Known Member
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    Just to make sure we're on the same page here...

    First I did this:
    http://www.uorenaissance.com/info/?page=g_info_t5&id=1104

    Then this and this and this:
    http://www.uorenaissance.com/info/?page=g_info_t5&id=1356
    http://www.uorenaissance.com/info/?page=g_info_t5&id=1359
    http://www.uorenaissance.com/info/?page=g_info_t5&id=1362

    That is what has allowed me to pursue the smith rewards at a loss for all this time. The sale of an agapite hammer will not make up for the amount of time and gold I've spent on this, despite the nice looking price tag.

    By my math, it would take an average of 20,000 BODs to get 6 smalls plus a large. Of course, the odds that all 6 will be precisely the ones needed is pretty slim. So in reality, it will take closer to 50,000 BODs to get that first set completed, and then less and less going forward until it's about one every 20,000. FWIW, there's already two larges for this set, and they are in the hands of 2 of the 3 main folks who do this (I am the odd duck out).

    I realize this takes more effort and startup capital than tailoring, but why is that a problem? Perhaps this is the highest cost-of-entry pursuit in UOR right now. Something has to be; not everything can or should be pursued immediately by players on their first day.

    I would not have guessed the supply of ingots on this shard was so heavily concentrated in the hands of so few. Wow.
    Dalavar, Mar 18, 2014
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  15. Chris

    Chris Renaissance Staff
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    This is the plan. We knew that step one on the process to addressing crafting in a largest sense was focusing on fundamentals. We will be addressing easily 50-100 crafting items on our todo list in the next few patches. Drop rates for various BOD's and adding new rewards to the BOD matrix for smithing are high on the list.

    The pictures were just posted to illustrate a point that players were making about "not having enough ingots to do ________" Players are allowed and even encouraged to hoard items to their hearts content. It brings the argument into context when you realize one of the most vocal players objecting to the patch has 1 million ingots in their house. This player went out of his way to use incorrect statements to try and create drama because of a change to his lucrative and apparently only playstyle. The pictures of ore stockpiles just illustrate what I was able to find in 5 minutes of searching of player courtyards.

    In order to maintain a fair and balanced environment for our players we will occasionally take steps to make sure that someone running a macro to gather a resource is no more effective than a player doing the same activity by hand.

    That said we will always respect and take into account our players opinions when provided in a constructive, positive manner such as this.
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2014
    Chris, Mar 18, 2014
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  16. Cynic

    Cynic Well-Known Member
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    I love how my minuscule chest of ore made it into the thread.

    The changes are fine for me, although at first I thought they would suck. You're giving me a steady stream of ingots and gold/plat now plus a shot at a statue which I can assume will go for quite a hefty price tag. I'll just drop to 2 miners and sit my PvM char near my runebooks to recall in for help.

    This doesn't really hurt me at all. I'm not saying this is what your goal was with this change but I'll still be able to watch Netflix, mine, and go kill some cave trolls. Afterall, I was able to PvP on a 3rd account and watch 2 miners going at it this entire time with no problems. I wager I could probably still recall mine with 3 accounts and do a quick re-log to kill the troll then get back to work.. I also assume that these monsters will get guard whacked too, yes?

    The only part that changes for me is being able to do this from a mobile device. Oh well, I haven't been doing that for a while now anyway.

    Back to mining I go.
    Cynic, Mar 18, 2014
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  17. Chris

    Chris Renaissance Staff
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    Thanks for the input Cynic, the trolls were actually proposed as a way to spice up the process and reward the players that are clearly attended in a direct sense.
    Chris, Mar 18, 2014
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  18. Cynic

    Cynic Well-Known Member
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    BTW the other pictures look like Red Rover and I think Mutombo. Red Rover is the large ore cache for sure.
    Cynic, Mar 18, 2014
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  19. Blaise

    Blaise Well-Known Member
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    Perhaps with this in place, we can get something setup wherein higher tier BoD turn-ins, get a higher chance of high tier renewals. IE: If I turn in a Copper BoD, I have a %1.0 chance of a Valorite bod when I request a new one, instead of a %0.5 chance.


    I have two recall-capable miners and a third in the works. I am fully in support of this change as auto-mining is truly an abuse of Razor where you only have to do real work a single time, to generate millions of gold in resources. ie: building the macro. I spent about a dozen hours building and refining my macro but I'm happy to see this change.
    Blaise, Mar 18, 2014
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  20. Jack of Shadows

    Jack of Shadows Well-Known Member
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    someone sitting on almost 10 mil worth of ingots and complaining cause they can't keep pulling more is kinda crazy. I never macro mined though I was intrigued by it, it does seem like something that's too cheap and easy not to have been adjusted. At least it was adjusted with a new mini boss and reward and not just a flat out nerf. I for it
    Jack of Shadows, Mar 18, 2014
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