Player Vendor Price Index

Hey fans, it's me again. This time it's not about Trammel.

With all the nice things the guys behind UOR have setup on the web site like statistics and leaderboards and stuff I was wondering whether it is possible to create some kind of a stock index for player vendor items.

Interesting information would be :
- Total current stock of an item on all player vendors on the shard.
- Average price per piece over all player vendors as well as highest and lowest price <= Okay, withdrawn.
- Vendor location with the lowest price. This is also to prevent price index manipulation. If you put something on sale for a very very low price to put pressure on other vendors, the location of your vendor will be revealed and people can go there and buy the stuff. <= I see this is a bad idea
- The average price an item was sold for during the last 3 or 6 months. Highest and lowest price as well <= I see this is a bad idea

That would greatly help the economy I think. Item prices vary greatly from shard to shard and even on the same shard they vary over time.

Let me know what you think and maybe one of the admins can give me an idea whether this is possible.
I can even offer my assistance, I'm a programmer and stuff

No Auction House, no vendor advertising through this system. Purely informational service - just another stat in the item details in the Item Database (Current average vendor price / Current accumulated vendor stock)

For e-peen purposes, I think it would be cool to keep track of the total value of items on a vendor, and sum that up by house owner.

For your "price control" suggestion, I am not sure it would do what you want it to do. Do people really put items for sale at really low prices to "put pressure" on other vendors, or is it simply to sell the item?! Furthermore, if they do... why is this something that you desire to control and curtail? IRL it is the driving force behind capitalism, which is generally thought of as a good thing...

Truth be told I love the current system, the system encourages players to go out, visit new vendors and try find better deals rather than everyone congregating on a single vendor with the best prices.

I feel at a certain point the game can become too automated especially when servers implement systems to do all of the boring tedious stuff - however it's this stuff that I love because it so closely emulates what would happen in real life. Although we have the internet now to do all the searching/shopping for us which makes my previous point somewhat moot, I would assume that in a MMORPG one would expect that the player interaction is the driving force behind the desire to play. These automated systems tend to minimize the interaction between players as they facilitate an environment where the end goal is all that matters, and in the process trivializing the game experience.

I cannot count how many times I've met people while shopping around Yew and ended up having a nice conversation - getting to know the owners of shops and their motives has been one of my most enriching experiences in the game. I feel a change like this would almost certainly eliminate a good portion of that interaction.

I'll admit that it would be nice to know the stock of a vendor, but I would hope that average prices/lowest prices would be excluded, a great part of UO is knowing the market and when to sell high/buy low - there are many players that adhere to this play style and providing in depth price analysis would cripple their income (Myself included!)

P.S. Shameless plug for my vendor thread!

It is very time consuming to keep up with the current prices for certain items. And few players have the time to keep a good overview of the market.

Now it's important to keep a shard accessible for occasional and new players - both groups that will find it very difficult to price certain items right.
Sticking with the "knowledge is power" system does mean the veteran & core players do keep a huge advantage.

And don't worry about prime vendor locations. They're mostly popular for their location, not for the best prices on the shard.
I wouldn't sail to a vendor in Dagger Isle just to save a few gp on recall scrolls.

Basically, I'm saying that a vendor / merchant should not be successful because he knows more or better than the others. He should be successful because he's got a good location, fair prices and offers a good shopping experience. Because he buys directly from players that don't have the time or money to maintain a vendor. Because he maintains good connections with players that provide him with good merchandise through his guild maybe.

I'm not saying introduce a stock-exchange-like auction house like they're just scrapping in Diablo3.
I'm saying give everybody the same chance to participate in trade and become a good merchant or sell his loot well.
Being a good merchant shouldn't be about scamming a newbie for some anniversary items. It's about buying for 10% less and selling for 10% more.
Make your location the reason people pay 15% more - because they can bank it or because you offer free gates.

I certainly disagree with this. Running a vendor is a skill in UO, no different than farming monsters, PKing, treasure hunting, stealing, or bank-sitting. If someone has spent time and effort to hone that skill, they should be able to reap whatever rewards that entails.

I am 100% against this. This is a social game that has always worked on the fact that you had to click on 100-1000 different vendors in order to either find that specific item you want or find the best prices. If you don't know what recalls go for then that's your fault, go out and look on vendors. If you don't know what a specific rare is worth, don't sell it until you do (ask around). Having prime vendor spots allows you to charge something above the going rate for items, it's a convenience charge. Putting it on a website showing that recalls average at 40gp each but "xxx" vendor sells them for 30 would hurt the economy and depreciate the value of prime vendor house locations.

If I can get away selling recalls at a 20% up-charge I shouldn't be put out of business because a website tells someone they go for cheaper elsewhere. You either shop around or buy my wares because I run a one stop vendor shop next to a bank.

It's a pain in the ass to have to shop around, and it should remain that way.

I'd be OK with this, though, eh it seems to be of limited usefulness.

I'm OK with this, and this would be very useful. However, it does raise the question, do you want a game that rewards those that have a finger on the marketplace's pulse? I think there's a lot of value to this aspect of the game, and its something you don't get in modern MMOs anymore. Being an expert businessman is something that kind of died out in the UO/EQ days of MMOs. The Auction House is God in anything post-WoW and there's no mystery left.

Like the others above, I definitely disagree with this one. One of the most unique things about UO is that real estate matters. From what I've played, no other MMO has ever successfully emulated this aspect of UO.

DAOC made a bit of an attempt and the real estate game was interesting for a very short while there. Soon after housing and vendors were live, though, they added a way to search the market place. You still had to walk to the seller's vendor house to make a purchase, but real estate instantly dropped in value and there was very little interest in buying 'high traffic' locations. Probably because there was no traffic any more. A month or so after that, they then let your purchase goods right from the search screen. As can be expected, real estate was completely dead at that point, and really, housing as a hole just became bleh.

Modern MMOs of course have completely phoned it in, and just have everything on an auction house.





While we're on the topic, a couple of things I'd love to see for vendors:
Sales Log - Get a list of who is purchasing your goods.
Lifetime Stats - See how much money your vendor has raked in over the months/years.

I think Sales Log is treading on dangerous ground. What if I want to try to buy up all of the semi-rare rock piles on the shard, without anyone knowing?

Lifetime stats is cool though, for sure.

My one worry about all of this - any of this, I mean - is that people may begin paying more attention to vendor upkeep costs, which is the single best gold sink there is and ever will be on this shard. I don't think that is wisely taken into account by too many vendor owners, which is great for keeping inflation down a bit.

I can understand that showing the lowest price and certain vendor locations does impact the game a little more than people might enjoy.

But showing an average price and maybe total stock for items would improve the game !

This still means you have to go and find a well priced vendor yourself. All the interaction and the half-empty vendors and running around searching - you still got it.

But it would also serve as a guideline for item pricing. Help stabilize prices for certain items and be an interesting tool to see how changes in the game mechanic affect prices. I would love to see average ingot vendor prices over the last months !

I seem to be hearing a majority of vendor owners here. Don't become like that. Don't try to make this shard your secret.
Are some of you really telling me that it is a valuable part of the game that you can make gold because you can overcharge people new to this shard and cheat them for their valuables ?

For me, it's a big problem to get a price for some things. Spend half an hour checking Yew Gate Stores selling special fishing nets - all sold out !
Couldn't find a single vendor selling horned leather to get an idea for the price.

I'm not going to waste more time trying to evaluate items than actually hunting them.

I don't own a vendor here, nor have I ever on any UO shard I've ever played on (besides for the purpose of simply completing agreed-to deals with people whose schedules differ from mine).

I see your frustration with that. However, the ability for a vendor to potentially overcome that is a great asset!

Let me relate to you a story from another shard. I posted on a forum asking about buying 5k arrows, and one player responded saying he could do that for me. He was entirely a crafter - not a PvMer, not a PvPer, not a rare-hunter, just a crafter. And he soon realized it took forever to get 5k feathers. But nonetheless he filled my order.

The next time I needed something mundane (like, 10 exceptional chainmail suits or something), I simply PMed him and he pointed me towards his vendor, which had what I needed.

The next time I needed something, I simply went to his vendor, and he had it waiting for me without my even asking.

And that is why I marked a rune to his vendor house (in the middle of the Trinsic swamps) and never again hunted around Yew or Brit moongate for items again. And he made a sh!t-ton of money from his vendor in the middle of nowhere because he was dependable. He was even able to charge a bit of a premium, because it was well worth my time to pay an extra 10% above "average" to know I wouldn't waste time running around Yew looking for stuff at average or below-average price.

This is a fundamental part of being a great crafter or vendor. And I'd no sooner rob a crafter of that possibility than I would suggest the removal of Factions or The True Harrower, for those who want to approach and reach the pinnacle of PvP and PvM.

Wodan, STOP making suggestions man. EVERY post you make somehow, in some way, oozes with trammel. Even when you say "this time it's not about trammel," it has trammel seeping out of every corner.

Deacon, you sir hit the nail on the head as did just about everyone else commenting here aside from wodan. This is becoming redundant.

Also not on board with the suggestion. I would not be opposed to being able to somehow search for items, which would make remote player vendors more viable, but I can live without it.

All a player vendor has to do is a little self marketing. Post a SS of your vendor location and a little description of your sales inventory. If someone wants to be even minimally successful it doesn't take rocket science. A successful economy is one ran by the players. Like a previous poster mentioned, being a good salesman is a skill in itself just as any other aspect such as PKing, pvmers, thieving, etc. The moment you take away the free market interaction which is created by the players who promote themselves, by adding a system that practically does all the advertising for them at the click of a button (which is what wodan is suggesting), you rob them and the economy of that potential. Once again, I say no.

I'd personally not want to see any aspects of the auction house in the form that it exists in WoW and other MMOs. The staff have already added in advertisement for vendors and you can get locations of houses on the UOR site.

These changes are not what history perfected looks like to me.

Oh come on ... you can't just call everything you don't approve "trammelite".
That's just Godwin's Law transferred to UO. Bring in some arguments...

Funny idea you have of a free market. Is a market with a price index not free any more ?

People will still buy from the same places. Please read my replies to this thread. I did correct my position towards the "lowest price" and "vendor location" idea and took a step back. What remains of my idea is an average price for items plus optionally a total stock overview.

This would in no way change the way you maintain a relationship with vendors or other players. It would help new/occasional players evaluate items easier, prevent them from getting scammed when selling rare stuff or magic weapons.

There's nothing to be afraid of unless you want to take advantage over other players that have problems judging the value of items.
What will be the result ? Few people will be buying recall scrolls at 80gp. I know how much I can expect for a MIB or a fishing net.


I also updated the original post. Please have a look for a revision on the idea. Anything related to highest & lowest price has been removed. Anything related to vendor location has also been removed. My idea behind this is not LOWERING vendor prices but making the market a little more accessible.

I still don't like it.

I'll just put a cbd on my vendor for 1gp and buy it over and over to pull the price down. Or i'll make some vendors inaccessible and put rares on them for really cheap to pull down (or up) the prices. This also won't handle 'offline' trades and barters which is how i resort to selling resources a lot.\

I fail to grasp the value for the economy from making the market more accessible for both buyer and seller.

I agree. I don't really see the need for this, or how it could be even close to accurate. I would much rather the staff put their (free and most generous) time torwards something more useful.

1) The system is not intended to cover all sales happening but rather offer pricing orientation when selling any uncommon items.

2) System should only count items that are for sale and not each sale individually. If you want to go through all the effort to manipulate the price for some item - go ahead.
Prices displayed should be a long term average and not the current state. You have to manipulate the price over a long period of time - nothing for a quick profit.

And apart from that - any price displayed there doesn't mean you can buy or sell at that price. It's like browsing old, closed ebay auctions. You get an idea of the price range but still need to find someone to buy or sell at that price.

An example might be boat deeds on this shard. I'm pretty sure a system like I proposed would come up with an average price of around 25-30k for a large boat. That means If I wanna go boat shopping, I better save 30k first. Looking at the Yew vendors, you quickly find some that sell for 30k. If you go on looking you find some selling for 25k. There's on guy in a crappy hut somewhere that sells them for 22.5k and you're happy you made a good deal. If you wanted to just buy a boat without much looking, you knew that spending 30k for the first boat you found wasn't a total rip off. Save time or save money - up to you. But don't waste 15 minutes for every damn purchase I want to make just to make sure I'm not being ripped off completely.

See: Deacons post below.

Anything that removes the necessity to interact with other players, is a detriment to the shard. For example, off the top of my head, 3 Account limit, Arms Lore data showing on the website (hopefully that gets removed when Arms Lore gets a gump with real data) and here's a doozy, Bulk Order Deeds.

As much as I appreciate the BoD system for the rewards it provides there is nothing about it that promotes player interaction. If you want to say 'BoD trading', that is a fraction of the amount of crafted item sales that would occur if we had a single or double account limit and no BoDs. People don't want to use their resources to create armor and weapons to sell on vendors because they can make a consistent income from BoDs and never leave the protection of the GZ or their home. They have no need to BUY those items on vendors because it's a short order process to just build your own crafter.

All this website suggestion will provide is a removal of the player community's required interaction to develop a market value for the items on the shard.