PvM scoreboard

One thing that would be interesting on the PvM leader board is to calculate the loot that each player profile has received from the monsters they've killed. Particularly for gold. I.E. a blood elemental drops 780 to 1050 gold, so an average of 915 gold per kill. Lukas has killed 4274 of them, so 3,910,710 gold (wow).

Adding all of that up, you can see who has farmed the most gold pieces across varied monster types. For example, who's slain more value in monsters:

Robin Redding: http://www.uorenaissance.com/index.php? ... r&id=26451
Wu: http://www.uorenaissance.com/index.php? ... r&id=85822

...and that way, you can have a top 10 not just for total kills, but for gold farming.

Presumably it would significantly increase the size of the database being used, but just figured I'd mention it as something I was curious about.

That would be neat, but I would be one broke joker.

that does sound interesting!

It's easy to do the calculations by hand for one character and one monster, sure.

But it's tedious to try to compare Robin Redding's gp gained from Dragons + Drakes + Blood Elementals and try to match that against Wu's gp gained from Elder Gazers + Efreets. That's 5 web pages to navigate to right there, and still won't give the full picture for even those two characters.

Basically I'm saying it's a way to turn the PvM leaderboard from an apples+oranges leaderboard to a true leaderboard, in which everyone has a rank and that rank is in one single unit (gp!), which I thought would be cool.

Precisely, it is tedious. So what makes you think it won't be tedious to code something that, in all fair honesty, is of minimal importance? There are much more relevant priorities the staff has to worry about other than you wanting to know how much gold player A has made off liches, ghouls, and ogres compared to player B. If you are seriously that concerned about such ridiculous information then take the "tedious" task upon yourself to calculate it.

It shouldn't be tedious at all. The gold drop for each monster is already listed on the bestiary site, so it's probably a safe assumption that it's available in the UOR database. Multiply the kills per monster by their gold drop amounts, and sum it all up. Depending how the tables are setup, this could be just a few lines of code.

Your typical fiery temperament aside, I completely agree with the above. Just figured I'd mention it because (a) I think it would be cool, and (b) I think other people think it would be cool.

I mean, why have a PvM leaderboard in the first place? Clearly the development of that in and of itself took time away from other stuff, which signals to me that a leaderboard is of some meaningful importance to players and/or staff. So I figured I'd offer my .02 about how I thought the leaderboard could be improved.

I know a bit about databases, and indeed I think it wold be relatively easy to do (depending on the table structure they use for the PvM leaderboard as it is). I think they'd just need to create one small new table, which simply consists of one column for monster ID and one column for avg. gold drop. This could be manually constructed once (I'd be happy to spend a few minutes to put this into a .csv if it helps) and then it's simply a join by monster ID and a multiplication of one value times another. And the result is a "true" leaderboard, in which everyone is measured on the same scale, whether they spend their time killing liches or gazers or serpents.

Anyways, I think its a neat idea. I'm all for more stats & leaderboards.

Yeah I apologize. I should probably steer away from reading the message boards in the mornings running on 3 hours of sleep. I actually wouldn't mind having a scoreboard that showed this info. So long as it is addressed in a proper lineup of priorities.

Clearly you are a gentleman and a scholar. Thanks for keeping things focused!

Here's a csv list of the monster names, gold, and their ID for future table purposes. Note the ID of Unicorn is broken (it's using the Skeleton value):

Creature Name,Avg Gold,id
Acid Elemental,425,1092
Actor,0,1245
Agapite Elemental,105,1169
Air Elemental,157.5,1086
Alchemist,0,1244
Alligator,0,1051
Ancient Lich,1175,1096
Ancient Wyrm,1762.5,1182
Arctic Ogre Lord,915,1123
Arctic Ogre Mage,3100,1216
Artist,0,1246
Azure Dragon,4650,1214
Bad Santa,0,1215
Balron,1480,1099
Barkeeper,0,1227
Barracoon,2400,1256
Beholder,3000,1231
Bird,0,1064
Black Bear,0,1001
Blacksmith,0,1247
Blitzen,0,1282
Blood Elemental,915,1087
Boar,0,1020
Bogle,52.5,1101
Bone Knight,157.5,1124
Bone Magi,105,1102
Bridegroom,0,1248
Brigand,105,1217
Brigand Archer,305,1318
Brigand Strong,305,1319
Bronze Elemental,105,1174
Brown Bear,0,1002
Bull,0,1014
Bullfrog,0,1021
Carpenter,0,1249
Cat,0,1065
Centaur,410,1261
Chicken,0,1005
Cobbler,0,1250
Colossus,3000,1280
Comet,0,1283
Cook,0,1251
Copper Elemental,105,1173
Corpser,52.5,1178
Cougar,0,1015
Cow,0,1013
Cupid,3750,1284
Cupid,0,1252
Cupids Apprentice Archer,212.5,1286
Cupids Archer,325,1287
Cupids Rookie Archer,162.5,1285
Cupids Vetern Archer,350,1288
Cursed,52.5,1206
Cyclops,410,1126
Daemon,515,1103
Dancer,0,1293
Dark One,3000,1232
Dasher,0,1294
Deep Sea Serpent,105,1183
Desert Ostard,0,1035
Dire Wolf,0,1009
Diseased Blood Elemental,4550,1233
Dog,0,1066
Dolphin,0,1022
Donner,0,1295
Dragon,1175,1212
Drake,357.5,1193
Dread Spider,800,1078
Dull Copper Elemental,105,1172
Eagle,0,1007
Earth Elemental,157.5,1094
Easter Bunny,300,1241
Efreet,357.5,1088
Efreet Sultan,1550,1219
Elder Gazer,687.5,1104
Elder Wyrm,9000,1213
Ethereal Warrior,1220,1262
Ettin,157.5,1128
Evil Mage,105,1105
Evil Mage Lord,410,1106
EvilHealer,0,1297
Executioner,562.5,1220
Faction DeathKnight,0,1298
Faction Henchman,0,1299
Faction Knight,0,1300
Faction Mercenary,0,1301
Faction Necromancer,0,1221
Faction Paladin,0,1302
Faction Sorceress,0,1303
Faction WarHorse,0,1304
Faction Wizard,0,1305
Farmer,0,1306
Fire Elemental,157.5,1089
Fire Gargoyle,410,1267
Fisherman,0,1307
Fluffy,1762.5,1242
Forest Ostard,0,1222
Frenzied Ostard,0,1037
Frost Ooze,0,1162
Frost Spider,105,1081
Frost Troll,105,1129
Furtrader,0,1308
Gamayun,1175,1234
Gargoyle,105,1107
Gazer,105,1110
Ghoul,52.5,1131
Giant Rat,13,1060
Giant Serpent,105,1052
Giant Spider,13,1083
Giant Toad,0,1023
Goat,0,1024
Golden Elemental,305,1170
Gorilla,0,1025
Grand Viser of Chaos,1762.5,1223
Great Hart,0,1026
Grey Wolf,0,1010
Grimmoch Drummel,210,1203
Grizzly Bear,0,1003
Gypsy,0,1309
Hair Stylist,0,1310
Harpy,52.5,1194
Harrower,5000,1260
Headless one,13,1132
Hell Cat,52.5,1016
Hell Hound,157.5,1155
Hind,0,1027
Holiday Elf (Beefy),237.5,1312
Holiday Elf (Rough),162.5,1311
Holiday Elf (Wimpy),112.5,1224
Horse,0,1038
Human Brigand,100,1237
Ice Elemental,210,1090
Ice Fiend,587.5,1111
Ice Serpent,52.5,1053
Ice Snake,52.5,1054
Imp,52.5,1112
Jack Rabbit,0,1061
Kirin,305,1264
Kraken,305,1195
Lava Lizard,52.5,1055
Lava Serpent,105,1056
Lava Snake,13,1057
Leprechaun,150,1243
Lich,305,1113
Lich Lord,587.5,1114
Lizardman,52.5,1196
Llama,0,1028
Lord Oaks,4000,1255
Lysander Gathenwale,105,1204
Mage,200,1296
Marble Elemental,587.5,1238
Mephitis,3200,1253
Merchant,200,1320
Messenger,0,1321
Minion of Cupid,12.5,1289
Mongbat,13,1135
Morg Bergen,0,1323
Mummy,305,1136
Neira,4800,1257
Nightmare,410,1043
Noble,200,1322
Ogre,105,1137
Ogre Lord,610,1138
Ogre Mage,3000,1225
Ophidian Archmage,305,1185
Ophidian Knight,610,1197
Ophidian Mage,105,1186
Ophidian Matriarch,587.5,1187
Ophidian Warrior,157.5,1198
Orc,52.5,1139
Orc Bomber,105,1140
Orc Captain,52.5,1142
Orc Scout,305,1226
Orcish Lord,157.5,1143
Orcish Mage,105,1115
Pack Horse,0,1030
Pack Llama,0,1031
Panther,0,1017
Phoenix,800,1008
Pig,0,1032
Pirate Bartender,800,1269
Pirate Boatswain,105,1274
Pirate Captain,800,1268
Pirate Digger,800,1270
Pirate Ghost,105,1273
Pirate Navigator,305,1275
Pirate Quartermaster,410,1276
Pirate Sailor,105,1277
Pixie,52.5,1157
Poison Elemental,800,1091
Polar Bear,0,1004
Prancer,0,1313
Predator Hell Cat,105,1018
Purveyor of Darkness,8500,1228
Rabbit,0,1062
Raging Grizzly Bear,0,1314
Rat,13,1067
Ratman,52.5,1144
Ratman Archer,305,1145
Ratman Mage,305,1116
Reaper,105,1175
Revenant,1175,1235
Rikktor,3200,1254
Rotting Corpse,1175,1147
Rudolph,0,1315
Sandstone Elemental,105,1239
Scorpion,52.5,1200
Sea Serpent,52.5,1188
Semidar,3787.5,1263
Serpentine Dragon,1175,1189
Servant of Cupid,37.5,1290
Sewer Rat,13,1063
Shade,52.5,1117
Shadow Fiend,0,1148
Shadow Iron Elemental,105,1171
Shadow Wisp,52.5,1158
Shadow Wyrm,1762.5,1190
Sheep,0,1033
Shipwreck Kraken,52.5,1281
Silvani,1600,1258
Silver Serpent,105,1058
Skeletal Knight,157.5,1149
Skeletal Mage,105,1118
Skeleton,13,1150
Slime,13,1166
Snake,0,1059
Snow Elemental,305,1095
Snow Leopard,0,1019
Sorcerer of Cupid,125,1292
Spectral Armour,357.5,1207
Spectre,52.5,1119
Stone Elemental,105,1240
Stone Gargoyle,210,1151
Stone Harpy,210,1199
Strong Mongbat,13,1152
Succubus,1175,1120
SwampTentacle,105,1180
Tavara Sewel,210,1208
Tentacles of the Harrower,1175,1209
Terathan Avenger,610,1079
Terathan Drone,52.5,1084
Terathan Infiltrator,1550,1236
Terathan Matriarch,515,1080
Terathan Warrior,105,1085
Timber Wolf,0,1011
Titan,742.5,1121
Troll,105,1153
Tropical Bird,0,1316
Undead Parrot,52.5,1278
Undead Pirate Captain,800,1271
Undead Pirate Sailor,105,1279
Unicorn,305,1150
Valorite Elemetal,587.5,1167
Verite Elemental,305,1168
Vixen,0,1317
Walrus,0,1034
Wandering Healer,0,1229
Warrior of Cupid,62.5,1291
Water Elemental,157.5,1093
White Wolf,0,1012
White Wyrm,1255,1192
Wisp,410,1159
Wraith,52.5,1122
Wyvern,157.5,1201
Wyvern Monarch,1550,1230
Zealot Knight,1175,1265
Zealot Magi,1175,1266
Zombie,52.5,1154

There may be a better thread to post this in, but I have been juggling a few ideas around since reading this post a month back. With the end of the year coming up and the proposed awards and kill count resets, I figure now is the time to make suggestions before any changes are made. Hopefully I am not too late to stir the pot!

First to the original post here: The matter may be less about how much gold is earned off each monster, but rather how difficult the monsters are to kill. Those two things usually correspond. If there were to be some numeric value placed on a monster, I would much rather see a difficulty, rather than gold rating. I.e. 1 placed on a rat, 20 on a drake, and a 50 placed on a dragon. I think that players hunting boss's and ancient/shadow wyrms, and the like should be as easily recognized for their PvM prowess as say, myself. (Thank you for the nod, btw) Something like this may be getting implemented soon. I just noticed the "Point Leader" below the "Kill Leader" scoreboard in the left margin of website.

For me, the leaderboards and player profiles are about tracking personal accomplishment, telling viewers a little about your character, and inspiring competition between players. I would love to be able to view a leaderboard for each category of kill. Total Kill, Animals, Arachnids, etc.

My last point, which may be better suited as a thread of its own is about champ spawns. I really love the PvM boards and all the tweaks that have happened since I started playing. I really got spurred on the first time I looked at my profile and I was first in most of the ice dungeon monsters, simply because it was the trash spawn no one else bothered to hunt and I was just having fun picking off monsters getting a feel for my bard. As time progressed I moved up in a lot of the general forest spawn but I wasn't ranked as high in things like dire wolves, slimes, giant rats, etc. (I didn't know much about champ spawns at the time.)

So began my whoring of champ spawns. Not for the sake of platinum, although I did reap them, but initially because I thought "F**k that, I've killed waaay more of that in the world than anyone else" and I liked my kill ranks to tell the story of what my character did, or where he hunted. I don't know if that makes sense or not, but clearly that's the only way to be ranked in "x" monster. I let up and returned to less tedious hunting after hitting #1 or 2 in most of the low level champ spawn (although my mongbats are all legit!/check my imp kills by comparison). After a month hiatus in September, I came back and was still first overall, but there was a definite surge of platinum farming in the low level spawn, to the point that Baracoon was temporarily shut down and the platinum spawn rate was changed last patch. Subsequently, I've had to return to the whoring.

I'm not hating against these players, because I understand the desire for platinum, and I fully admit to my share of kills via champ spawn whoring. However, its absurd to see players very highly ranked in overall kills with, in some cases, (no joke) as much as 90% of their total kills comprised of champion spawn. If kill counts are reset, which I am not opposed to, and it is a sure thing there will be rewards at years end next year, then the competition for overall kills leader will be nothing more than a champion spawn killing contest. If the champion spawn were a separate kill/points total, it would be an achievement of its own to be recognized for, especially if a points system were implemented where really, really big points were awarded for actually taking out the champion. Also, for a play-style like mine (a la Iolo FitzOwen) where I kill most anything I see, it would be great to have an accurate kill count of those individual monsters outside of the champ spawn kills in order to appreciate my own handy work and compare it to other players on the shard.

Suggestion summary:
1. Place a difficulty value on monsters (possibly already happening) and give lesser or no value to champ spawn.
2. Make the rankings of each kill category available
3. Make the individual monsters at champion spawns a separate kill count from those found in the world
4. Make Champion Spawn its own kill category under overall kills, or a completely separate kill category from overall kills.

Thank you for taking the time to read, and I would love to see this discussion continued. There isn't much time before the end of the year. I can't wait to see what Telemon has planned!

P.S. My new years resolution is to hunt less and be more active in the forums and community.

P.S.S. I cant wait for the kill counts to be reset so I can stop worrying about staying in first place...but I'm gunning for 100,000 kills until then!

Incidentally, the gold on these monsters is 13, 363, and 1175, for a ratio of 1 to 28 to 90.

I don't follow why you'd rather see a made-up number (that we would, of course, inevitably have to argue about for each monster) as opposed to the gold. We're all doing this for the gold, it scales by monster difficulty, etc. "Robin Redding killed 3,467,987 gp worth of monsters!" sounds way more impressive and useful than "Robin Redding killed 11,462 level 1's, 2,300 level 20's and 3,570 level 50's!"

I like the numbers you came up with. Mine were more of a hypothetical set. I'm for either idea being implemented. In most cases the two scoring systems in question would be identical in ratio, as you demonstrated, and they accomplish the same thing. I was hoping my post might get some feedback or inside information about what exactly the PvM "Points Leader" scoreboard I mentioned is going to be. In defense of my position, there are some monsters like poison ele (I think that's a good example) that don't really yield the gold for the trouble/difficulty they are, which is why no one hunts them in comparison to blood ele's. Also there is the issue of how many corpses do you collect the gold from, blasting through a champ spawn (don't get me started again on that subject again). I could be 100% wrong about the poison ele's (there may be a better example out there like bosses or champions), and you are right that either scoring system requires a lot of thought and debate to establish the numbers. I don't think a points system, if it were implemented, would work well as a gold score if you are trying to establish merit in what you kill, which is what I would rather see. However, I completely understand your desire to know approximately how much gold is being earned by individual players and I thought it an intriguing idea. As I said, the leaderboards are about gaining more info about other players and inspiring competition and the gold scores would accomplish both of those things.

Edit Addition: If it sounds like I'm back pedaling a little in support of your position, its because I jumped to the conclusion that your motive for the scoring system was for merit and not strictly for gold counts. If that is in fact the case, then the debate should continue as to whether gold/kill is equal to difficulty/kill in all cases. Otherwise, I think both are good measuring sticks and worth consideration.

I missed an important point. I think it would be a complied number, which may be the "Points Leaderboard" system, not an individual score for each monster. Are you wanting a gold number for each individual monster or just a "Robin Redding has potentially collected XXgp in his entire career"? I'd be more interested in a single compiled score if it is a difficulty score. Multiply the number of kills in each level by that level number and add them to get your grand total. I don't think we disagree, we just want different things and I'm piggy-backing my idea off of yours. I think gold=merit(effort). As you said, that's why we kill, but difficulty or time/resources spent to kill a monster = a different kind of merit IMO. I don't think the two correspond closely enough across the monster-verse in order for one kind of merit to equal the other. Its like a squares are rectangles but all rectangles aren't squares thing (look it up people).

Edit: And to your point, the made up numbers would be far more difficult to figure and implement than simply taking from beastiary numbers. However, it might be as simple as a mathematical system that could figure the difficulty score based on stats/monster types/special abilities. I'm not saying I have that figured out. This idea is in infancy.

I'm most interested in gold counts, because that'a an objective measure. And it's presumably why all of us have killed all of these monsters - that's why we open the corpses and take it from the guys we kill.

But any measure of "merit" that is derived *after* we have killed these monsters is not a good way to measure merit. If we're going to compete on some scoring system, we should presumably know what that scoring system is before we play the game.

I think those are the best arguments in favor of the gold score system I have read yet, unless you said them already. Apologies for not re-reading the entire thread at the moment. The objective measure and obviousness of gold (not needing an explanation to new players) does have clear advantages. I like the idea of an alternate scoring system a lot and your proposal got me thinking about how to differentiate between players who kill less, but more difficult prey vs. gobs and gobs of weak stuff. The former would have high points scores, the latter high kill scores. Both play-styles require time and some dedication to rank highly, both would receive recognition. The gold ratios may work well enough to differentiate that, or if close enough that is a conclusion people would have to draw on their own, comparing numbers with other players. My fear is that it wouldn't, and "top dog" in kill score and gold score (if implemented) next year would essentially boil down to who can blade spirit the most champ mobs. Its a time consuming task, it requires effort that can't be overlooked, but its not as impressive or as difficulty to me as say, Tater Salad killing over 1000 shadow wyrms. Perhaps my issue lies solely in the ease of getting kill counts at champion spawns and I should post a separate thread to whine about it! :-D

A scoring system/leaderboard that is based on something other than 1 kill/1 point is a must. Lets agree on that and demand it! (its probably already happening though?) I think gold is the standard (it was good enough for America until 1971). I back that up too. I just worry the top 10 names on one score board will be the top 10 on the other, and what does that accomplish other than tracking potential gold earned and having the server figure that number out for us? That's still great info, but I would like to see the alternate scoring system represent a different competition or contest for players.

Oh, I remembered another suggestion for years end... Make bosses a separate kill count category and add some new Bosses to the beastiary!

I don't think the top 10 in total kills will be the same as in total gold. For example, I think Wu has a very high gold for most of his kills, and myself as well - I focus on the big guys.

If I were designing this with a magic wand, I'd probably suggest a chart with the following columns:

Name
Total kills
Total gold
avg. gold per kill

I think the "average gold per kill" is what you're most interested in seeing. That would certainly differentiate who tackles the hardest monsters. And somewhere out there, there would be someone who has perhaps just killed two dragons and an ancient wyrm, but otherwise PvP's, and their avg. gold per kill will be off the charts! Would be interesting to see.

But as I mentioned, that would be if I had a magic wand. I don't know how easy or hard or time consuming any of this is to program.