I'm creating this thread to help direct thoughts about improvements and complaints for the thieving skill here. Such thoughts and comments are needed, but I don't want them to detract from blackeye's valuable story-telling thread. I'll sound off by clarifying my thoughts on the topic of UO thieving. Because I'm a bigot (aka human) I like to try and label things into categories. In the case of thieving discussions I believe we can fit the ideas into 3 main camps. I think to some degree we all favor thoughts within each of these camps. 1. The idea that anybody who plays a thief is a keel jerk irl and that you should never be able to steal valuable things from another player 2. The idea that we should respect thievery, feel it is important part of Fellucan play style, but are unsure how to reconcile the nuisance of poor thieves and mitigate the inevitable rage that occurs when a victim loses something of great value 3. Those who believe a thief in UO should be able to steal anything from another and that they should be able to do so without consequence or any risk of lasting negative impact. (Let's be honest, the true impact of stealing something of significant value is more permanent than the risk of losing a handful of regs and a death robe) I believe most of the ideas and opinions i have fit in the second camp myself, and I think most of all of us share in this camp and on occasion we pull thoughts from the other two extremes. I think that thieves have to understand on utterly important fact: your targets are your fellow players. Without a community you have no targets. It is the same dilemma that faces the pk play style. I think the great hypocrisy of pks and thieving class is that they claim they don't want to be classified as PvM, however if any "farmable" system were to be put in place you could guarantee that everyone and their dog would begin farming it. The bounty system on thieves for example, if somebody were to accumulate a 1 million gold bounty, how many of us would believe somebody wouldn't just kill themselves with an alt for the bounty? Now with that wall of text surmounted, let the discussion degenerate. I personally think that thieving should be improved to promote PvM thieving and that the stealing from players should only be tweaked so long as we have a way to ensure players can defend against thievery 100% if they choose. I think thieves should be able to steal the tmaps, magic weapons, slayers, etc that would spawn on a mob instead of just gold. The only time a thief should be able to get away Scott free in town is if no human players are paying attention. I would favor a system that functions like this: npc's no longer call guard on thieving however a successful theft attempt in town is always reported to all human players. Using the command "stop thief" give the user a target to point at the thief, if they are a "hot thief" (meaning they have stolen within the last 2 minutes) then they become paralyzed. Upon death, all hot items are returned to victims regardless of distance. Only items on the thief's body are cold items. This system, while seemingly powerful gives thieves more of what they want and make the pursuit more interesting. A thief can use stealth, speed, and dumb luck to evade the perma-paralyze in town. They won't be having guards called on them all the time and town victims have a near 100% chance to retrieve the item if they are attentive.
If you didn't make it past my meandering wall of text at least consider this: thieving in town should be in favor of victims, thieving outside of town should favor thieves in looser item restrictions And then consider this system for in town thieving: The only time a thief should be able to get away Scott free in town is if no human players are paying attention. I would favor a system that functions like this: npc's no longer call guard on thieving however a successful theft attempt in town is always reported to all human players. Using the command "stop thief" give the user a target to point at the thief, if they are a "hot thief" (meaning they have stolen within the last 2 minutes) then they become paralyzed. Upon death, all hot items are returned to victims regardless of distance. Only items on the thief's body are cold items. This system, while seemingly powerful gives thieves more of what they want and make the pursuit more interesting. A thief can use stealth, speed, and dumb luck to evade the perma-paralyze in town. They won't be having guards called on them all the time and town victims have a near 100% chance to retrieve the item if they are attentive.
Phew, that's an idea for a very big change. And honestly, I don't like the idea that marks simply can push a macro hotkey and perma-stun me in guardzones (setting such a hotkey isn't very hard). Why are the standard tools for pvp (stunning, attacking, etc.) not sufficient? Especially if you consider that other players typically join the hunt for the grey thief and that thieves have no armor typically and die quite fast. Apart from hunting thieves, IMHO, the best defense against thieves is already available for everybody, fighters and crafters alike: Have no valuable items in bagpacks and managed your bagpacks if so. People should e.g. use magic traps, pay attention to the values they carry with them and don't be afk with stuff on them. Added to this there are alot of NPCs (best of all the non-moving town cryers) around banks for additional safety. To sum it up, I hate this concept: "...and town victims have a near 100% chance to retrieve the item if they are attentive". Not simply because I am playing a thief! I don't like it, because 1. it's an extreme modification of the renaissance mechanics, 2. it allows for more careless management of bagpacks and banking and very important 3. there aren't very good alternatives right now for bank/city thieves to go out and find marks. Let's face it, there are prime times were champ spawns and other stuff is done, but apart from that times (USA evenings at weekends...) it is hard to find good marks outside. Another example, even experienced players are massively (ab)using the safe Ocllo Bank designed for newbies and youngs, at every time of the week. It's a hotspot all the time, and every thief learns very fast that the density of marks is very high there. There is a simple reason, why city thieves are so prevalent here. Also, I want to mention that another thread was started considering this topic that you may have missed: http://uorforum.com/threads/thievery-not-perfected-yet.8419/
This argument highlights the concept of PvM farming players. Also you overlooked the trade for the in town paralyze, you would no longer have instant guard wacks. I like the idea of trades when considering negotiations. Thieves want to be able to steal all types of items, but rarely consent to added risk to support it. Stealing from players in town = zero risk. Sure you give up your time but that's a choice. Propose an alternative and please don't make it thief-centric. It should improve the class but you have to keep in mind that "marks" are not npc's and thus like it or not careful consideration has to players' rights.
Keep it like it is. I (or other 5D members btw) never complained about GWs and frankly, I call everybody that is complaining about GWs inexperienced in the UOR mechanics. Only because I don't like the deal, is a bad reason to call me pvm oriented. Its also not honest. Where is the pvp character in your proposal? Attended players simply can perma stun thieves and then whack them. No house chasing, no floor jumping via teleportation, no hide/reveal action. Also no need for thieves to wait for the right moment without GWs, no stealthed following, no counting of tiles, and some more funny tricks I won't mention.
I also want to remark that pvp is done in localized areas. From arenas, to CTFs, to dungeons, to moongates and other certain hotspot. Everybody wants as much interaction as possible with minimized searching time. Same goes for thieves, why not?
I see your point here and would agree a permanent paralyze would be way over powered. What if a hot thief can't recall / gate within town limits? Yes it means you have to run for the border or stay alive in town for at least 2 minutes, but still involves the pursuit and many of the tactics of evasion you mentioned.
I think the best way to judge is to try to play a stealth thief for yourself and see what is involved. I just recently did. It is actually incredibly difficult to steal things from players as a stealth thief. Most people don't just stand around... +With regards to in town mechanics, I think they work fine. I don't have a problem with the npc guard whack mechanic. They are tough but they should be. There should be "some" degree of safety in town. I don't like the Paralyze command idea though. I'll take current mechanics over that. The P-command option only helps with AFK stealing while it makes active player stealing practically impossible. If I remember what I have read from Jack of Shadows correctly, he claims that you cannot make a ton of money as a thief trying to steal from players due to some of the mechanics which prevent you from stealing items of high value (I am sorry I am not going to go search through forums for the actual examples). I think if you take into consideration the time you have to invest in acquiring a Mark and actually managing to get it to stand still long enough to rob it, and the chances of them having something worth stealing on them, and then comparing that to farming PvM, then that statement is %100 true unless you get really lucky. That being said, I don't think people who play the stealth thief will do it for great monetary gains, but rather for fun and for the stories to tell later. Put in a bunch of time for a memorable score. The stealth thief feels like a "play for fun class". If you are aware and have some fighting skills, you should be able to give the thief a good chase and hopefully recover your items. The mounted characters that run up to you and snoop you in town to go gray, then try to PK you if you do something about it are the annoying ones. Also the ones who actually have snooping and then grab your stuff and run for it. If mounted characters could not steal in town boundaries then it would solve my problem but create a problem for Factioner Disarm Thieves. Thanks for the alternate thread Jupiter.
I will look into this matter at a later date, but for now, this coming from the Grey Wizard? It's a trap!!
I 99% support the proposal! The missing 1% would be to just replace the stuns with guard whacks and call it good, while giving the victims a much smaller window in which to call the guards successfully (to allow for getaways). The two issues that I see with the current system: Depending on the RNG, victims can only sometimes call guards on a thief. This leads a lot of victims to inevitably think the system is bugged. Other victims just get really frustrated with it, since the game isn't responding as one would logically expect. (I caught someone committing a crime, but the guards didn't respond. Meanwhile the thief sat their and mocked me, wtf?) Even when finding a distracted or AFK target, thieves live and die by the RNG with those damned NPC guard calls. Maybe some have gotten used to it since that's just how "UO has always been", but I don't find this mechanic fun or challenging for anyone. If I'm the thief, let me come up with a distraction. Reward me for being patient while the mark does their banking or trading and waiting for the opportune moment. If someone is clutching their wallet and actively paying attention, then no, a thief shouldn't be able to just take things willy-nilly. Reward the thief for creativity and patience as opposed to getting good luck with the RNG. The RNG can still play a factor in determining whether the steal is successful or not, but please leave the guard calling up to players. On a side note... There are some added bits of thief protection on UOR. Some of it I think is brilliant (recently traded items). Some of it I think is overkill (BOD books and runebooks not being target-stealable).
I'm would identify myself in the third of wicked Grey wizard's camps. Of course! PVMing for thieves could sure be fun for some, but I for one didn't start thieving because of my great love for the game itself, but for, as someone said, the interesting interaction with players and he stories coming out of it. So, probably good but maybe not a main question for most thieves? Jupiter's idea of town thievery is interesting, I would however prefer the traditional guard whack as mr Badouche pointed out. We must not change our traditions too much! Or this will be Trammel Online in no time.
