If we're having a discussion about the effects of thieves here, we should look no further than the prevalence of dexxer builds on this server. One of the big reasons why so few people choose dexxer builds is because of how relentlessly they're abused and abusable by the thieves who can last-target steal their weapons sitting in a 10 deep stack of containers and render them entirely defenseless and unusable. You can even do this with target by type if you at some point had the bag snooped. How do you think buffs to stealing will affect dexxer prevalence? Why don't we talk about how thieves make more money at server events than the people participating in it?
People make good steals in UO now with current mechanics. There are many threads bragging about them. They can do so in town, too. I've played thieves, all of this is possible. During events, they can make more money more easily than the people actually participating in the event precisely because their targets are more plentiful and carrying more expensive loot both in town and out of town. Sure, I understand it's more likely your ghost robe thief with some recall regs in their pack is more likely to be guard-whacked in town than they were during some publish on production servers... but so what? Maybe they should have been on production too. Lacking the targets who are rich enough to carry expensive loot for you to take from them for a sufficient gold/hour ratio isn't an issue with thieving mechanics. The problem is the lack of plentiful, vulnerable victims for you to easily target carrying expensive items. If it was a problem with mechanics, thieves would not be able to do so well around times when far more people are out and about playing and having chances to have more expensive loot in their pack. Pks do get everything, even the gm instrument and regs, and the item worth far more than everything else (the one the thief steals). Pks also have to subject themselves to significantly more risk, they have to stay on screen longer, they have to actually kill their target instead of briefly touching them, they're easily identifiable, they cant go into town, NPCs immediately call guards on them, they are punished for going on killing sprees, etc., etc., because pks have serious drawbacks compared to thieves. Thieves have a 2m timer and then they can do it again and the only drawback is they cannot give counts when they're killed. That poll isn't exactly going to be helpful. It includes radically different things with totally different effects as the same choice, e.g., NPC line of sight should be reduced (or NPC guard calls should be eliminated or it should be possible to mount ethereals while hidden (or the invisibility spell should last longer).
How often do you think pks hit it big? Does that mean pking needs a buff? Do you think that means there is a mechanics problem with pking or that it's rare for them to have a victim who is carrying something of enough value to be a big take? Well, more fun for you. Your victims or how that fun affects them or the playerbase doesn't seem to be much of a concern. Do you think a balance between the ease to victimize other players and how that creates a fun environment for your victims to want to play in is important? For example, people don't use dexxers in large part because of how incredibly easy it is for thieves to abuse that template and even render them totally unable to attack the thief. Does that concern you? In all honesty, do you think there exists a playstyle which is more likely to cause people to quit than the thief template? The house looting? The stealing tamer scrolls, etc.? Frankly, imo, there is no other playstyle which even comes close to making players quit or have a very negative experience in Ultima Online than the thieving playstyle so a discussion about that balance is very important to have. Oh, sorry, I was addressing some of the ideas in the thread.
Sir Iago, Unless I am mistaken this was about Thievery mechanics and not about players intentions when playing a thief. If you think we can fix harassment by removing stealing from game then you are a fool. As it is now, every single player that like to play a roguish character is punished because you think they are all the same kind of players.
A discussion about thieving mechanics, the balance with ease of thieving, and its effects on the server are relevant to a thread in which thieves are claiming their playstyle is unfairly nerfed and desperately in need of being buffed. I don't know what you're talking about. I never claimed stealing should be removed nor did I claim removing stealing would stop harassment of players. While I certainly wish mechanics were contingent on my approval and suggestion, your mischaracterization of my thoughts about all roguish players has nothing to do with their current mechanics.
Guys - let's keep this civil and on-topic. Insults won't help much. Iago is presenting a valid, well thought out, and (I think) fairly correct view-point. Small steps are the best way to move the ball here - as I don't really think the skill is that far off. A fix on stacks would be great, I think. I also really think an increase in PvM type options would dramatically increase the playability of the class, while also dramatically decrease the "harm" to other players.
Wow, nice to see such interest in the thieving question! I'll try to comment on what has been said until now, sorry if missing anything, a whole bunch of ideas in there already. I'm not sure how to respond in the best way, so that we can maintain a unified discussion, maybe we'll have to let there be certain digressions coming and going. Bayara: I forgot to say that, from the very beginning, I think the introduction of the 2 min recall block was a radical move already. So I think my suggestions are legit. However, I don't like the thief-ethy-mount idea but I threw it in to get more alternatives. Blaise: In a way I think it's more fun to have that element of surprise: "How much did I get?!" But I suppose your suggestion rewards skillful play more, which is hard to argue against. Most of the time a good thief would probably aim to steal smaller amounts not to get guardwhacked. I think that's a good dynamic to have. Drunk Blaise, good job! P.S. There'd need to be a way to set the amount you wanna aim for in a macro. Wouldn't like to have to use the slider by hand. D.S. Random: Rares: I like the idea of stealing rares etc, but doesn't it go more into lockpicking than thievery? Monster loot: Perhaps it's possible to script so that stealing target the inside of the monsterpack? This would keep looting abuse away and make stealing from mobs possible. Event Lobby: I'm not following here! What do u mean? House security: I hear you but I think most people would rage over these changes. Blocking offensive spells isn't an issue for me, but the extra lockdowns and secures are. There's already so many ways of protecting your house, the information is made available, even on the in-game house sign. Trade timer: I don't like the change but could sort of comply with it in case of preventing trade scamming. However, as you point out, a THIRD party thief, that perhaps overheard a conversation and sneaked up to the traders, shouldn't be restricted by this. The trade window mechanic should only apply to the trading parts, not any third part. Of course, this could be circumvented by one of the traders with their alt as a thief... Which would need more discussion I think. Can't think of how to prevent that. Unless you could prevent players according to their IP address... Muggers: You might have a nice concept there: always succeeding to steal stacked light weight items, however, the amount is random. But I also like One's suggestion (that I read somewhere) that it should always be possible to fail or to succeed. Iago: Agreed. Thieving and PKing require victims in a way other playstyles don't. Maybe the answer of balancing thieving lies within this assumption. Most of the time new players are victimized but not exclusively. Yes, it requires people to play poorly, many heists depend on those small windows of opportunity when victims are caught off-guard, it may happen to anyone; it's not a n00b-thing, it's a bored-/tired-thing where a player let's the guard down "just this once". Portraying thieves as having a direct effect of reducing the server population, I think, depends on whether house-looting is to be considered theiving. I don't buy it that people would quit due to getting stolen from through the stealing skill. Even if there's alot of thefts occurring in one day, we need to remember that mostly, these are spread out on a whole bunch of people. It's not one player carrying the whole load of getting stolen from. As One pointed out, house looting isn't restricted to thief templates. However, I think that dedicated thieves put most time into it. But it's not exclusively a thieving thing as a pvp-mage could do it just as well. House lootings are rare and takes dedication, as One said, those occassions usually make it to the forums as they're extraordinary. So the argument from house looting depends on a big 'if', and I'm not sure it's fair to argue in this way, judging the ins and outs of the thief template on such a rare event. Arguing from possibilites – if you hit it big – applies to any playstyle; what makes thieving so discriminatory? Couldn't just anyone happen to pass an open house full of loot? I'm not very sure on what my views are here though, I'll need more input from others to make up my mind I guess. There are stories and comics but this reference is misleading as there are many failures behind those successes that don't get recorded. The relevant thing is what the ratio would be between fail/success here. Not merely the amount of brag comments and threads. I never participated in many events. Those I did partake in, I maybe got a holiday coin or two. Mostly I stealthed or ran around being afraid of getting group ganked by all the regular players. But maybe I'm just an event noob. When saying 60k-100k in minutes you must refer to someone managing to steal a rare I suppose? Is that common? Otherwise I think my thoughts on the rarity of house looting apply. On events though, I wouldn't be opposed to banning stealing from events. I don't care too much about them, I want the regular gaming to be good. What do you think about that idea? 1. You can circumvent the recall block somewhat but not "entirely" as your chaser can follow you as well. But I agree it's a reasonable option. Gatebots, I think, shouldn't be a requirement for a certain playstyle. Well, unless you're playing a gatebot-playstyle I suppose. But a regular gate would be sufficient enough in most cases. 2. I'm not following; is this in town or dungeon, and for a regular mount or ethy? 3. In town this isn't a problem but in dungeons it is, your targets may very well be recallin around from spot to spot. Time is a greater factor in dungeons than in towns. I could stealth, target an item in a dungeon, then recall to a mount in a safe spot, then recall in and run to the target player. But it's kinda lengthy and hurts playability, while it's still fully possible of course. 4. When mounted yes. Un-mounted in a dungeon, at least I've never experienced it. 6. This suggest that thieves should be a regular pvp playstyle while I think ppl choose to play thieves since they don't like that way of playing. But ya, thieves need to be prepared for it I suppose. If you're suggesting making thieves unable to go through gates your first point above is gone. Then the 120 recall block couldn't be circumvented. Would you then propose some other idea on how to get thieves mounted, as magic wouldn't be an alternative? I don't like any buffs to regular ethy mounts as this only applies to very wealthy thieves. My thief-ethy suggestion is an alternative, I don't like it though, but it's at least something else. Regarding the complaint, well, shouldn't thieves be able to do just that? Or something like that, at least. He put time into stealthing up, tracking players, snooping around for targets (taking most of the time), etc. As BlackEye put it, time is the most valuable asset, thieves put alot of time into scouting for targets that don't present themselves. I don't know about the events as I said earlier, but the comparison may be a good one in showing some perspectives. For example, how bad is it, really, to occassionally loose some expensive item when taking your regular 60k-100k/hour income into account? Also, it doesn't have to be a claim for saying that thieves should gain the same amount of money. Would be hard to measure such a thing for thieves, since, as you said, there's a difference in constantly respawning monsters contra real players. Do PKs even play to earn stuff? I thought the main point of PKing is to get the fighting and killing people. But if PKs choose their playstyle as a main source of income I guess I have to take a step back. My stealth-archer PK is just for fun, I just need targets, not loots really. Last: As I'm writing this all in one go I'm a little tired. If I miss addressing the points you bring up in your second post, please notify. I think I've touched at some of the things you want to put light on. Thanks for getting some discussion going!! Cynic: I think mounting ethys while hidden should be somewhat of a side-point. Or at least, it'd be unfair to measure our evaluation of the thieving playstyle according to high end items as ethys. I agree that the reverse-gating isn't ideal, it's possible but not good for playability. That's true. You do fail quite alot for 8th circle spells on GM. Taken this into account I couldn't argue for a change to the success-/fail-rates really. The only way to argue, it seems to me, is to argue from era accuracy but as I initially stated I take this to be a moot point (I'd like to see it, but I don't reckon that opinion is very strong with the community). I think I can agree to that. There's so much in my head right now, but I think I mentioned going "publicly grey", i.e. grey to everyone. Going grey to the victim is reasonable, but not always publicly grey. My thinking on the locked boxes is more like, as someone mentioned earlier, that it breaks regular physics. But of course, this isn't a physics simulator. I'd much rather see your idea on getting trapped pouches to work better (isn't the 1 dmg just something in town though?). It seems like tinker traps will get changed soon, then ppl may start using them much more often as they could be triggered without having to pick the lock. Uncautious thieves snooping = almost certainly dead thieves. I like that! On the events, as I said to Iago above, I'm open to banning stealing on events. I care mostly about the regular gaming experience. I still agree with BlackEye that time is the most relevant factor when speaking of risk. A thief risks meaningless time sneaking after someone in a dungeon. Either the person had nothing nice to steal or u just failed. On the typical "death robe thief" I think it's important to make a distinction from those and more dedicated thieves. Perhaps they risk nothing, and don't care very much about their time either, at least you don't get that impression from their effort. But there are other more dedicated thieves in the community. @ToX and @wylwrk: I hate you for pitying thieves! I'm Franz Pfniffel, I'm Alpha Male, I don't need your pity. I'm strong, dangerous and killz all! One: 1) I like the idea of being able to steal any weigh, even though it's very small. This may allow for some very epic stories, for those few times you actually pulled that horse wagon out of someone's backpack, etc. Also, I prefer randomness to the amount of stack items, but as I said to Blaise above, hard to argue against his idea (which rewards skillful thinking thieves). Just to get clear on your calculation: So if attempting to steal 1 stone, my success rate is 100-(5x1)=95%? I'm not too good with maths and numbers but, seems reasonable, I guess? Maybe I can deploy @snap dragon on this one. 2) Agreed. This is my biggest annoyance as well, it puzzles me that I didn't mention it in OP. 3) I recognize those grey-conditions from somewhere. Always thought those were good ones. There might be a drawback in getting (new) players to understand the mechanics though, much confusion at times? Perhaps this may be added to my pop-up idea? 5) I could go with this idea. Just because I liked my idea about a special thieves powder, maybe thieves could buy mount-hiding powder from the thieves guild master?! Or a cave-like cloak to throw over the horse (lol)? 7) I could go with that. You're a thief though, not a murderer, but for pvp-thieves this could be a nice change. 10) I don't see directly stealable runebooks as a big issue, it's sorta fun to random steal them. Isn't the current mechanic fair, considering the amount of time usually invested in marking runes for a runebook? 11) I could agree as long as something like 5) is implemented. 12) I like this idea very much! It's an ingenous way of reducing such snooping harassment. Makes stealthing about in town a little more fun also, as there's some real danger to snooping. Now you can be darting between a bunch of people, quickly snooping all of them in a short moment. 13) Off-topic! I suggest making a new thread for discussing this. 14) Off-topic! Go back to Down's thread (where you belong, I was about to say, hehe). I'll stop there for now. ZzzZzzzz... Just point me in the direction for stuff I missed and I'll try to respond. Nice with all the energy in here though!
Too many Trump Walls of text that I just cannot bring myself to climb... so I'm just gonna post my opinions that can be viewed as my votes, if you like. -Don't change criminal timer. -Don't give free ethy. -Only go grey to victim. -Yes, unlimited stealth at GM. (I've played with this and it's fun. Wouldn't be OP here with all the damn trackers.) -Get rid of accessible, locked containers. -Increase success chance at GM stealing (not before.) -I like the newb pop-up idea.
In defense of reduced mount timer for the ethy thief: As a "dedicated" thief, obtaining my ethy llama was the only real end-game thieving content out there besides a blessed runebook. Why not add another reason to strive for one?
I was thinking more along the lines of tying it in to GM stealth, thus requiring a 200 skill point commitment in order to benefit.
@Jakob If the problem with stealing is mechanics, why do thieves do so well (even better than most people) at shard events? That makes me think the problem isn't mechanics and is the lack of victims because when thieves have victims, they do very well. For you to be correct, this shouldn't happen and yet it does. PKs rarely score it big too, does that mean there is a problem with pk mechanics? Should it be made easier to pk people? Most thieves I've met steal currently mostly because they enjoy stealing. Given most of the complains I've read from thieves in this thread, it doesn't seem to have much to do with making lots of pixels from it. The same is true for most pks. Should pks be able to recall 15s after attacking someone? That mechanic exists to enable other players to attack and kill the criminals, pks or thieves. Enabling victims to have redress against attackers and thieves is a fundamental part of the game. Making it easier for them to escape and hide in their houses is a big drawback for other players on the server. We should make it easier for victims and others on the server to respond and kill criminals, not make it easier for them to escape and hide in their houses. I've used a thief in town, I've used a thief outside of town, I've used a thief at shard events. The mechanics are just fine for thieves to do well. Their only issue is the lack of victims who are carrying valuable items in their bags for thieves to steal. Making it even easier for thieves to victimize players will not solve that issue, you guys will be back in here complaining about something else because your content relies on other players on the server.
Stealing items from another player is the same as stealing their time. Thieves should not be rewarded for snooping a bag and stealing an item real quick. They should spend time infiltrating a major guild until they're handed the keys to the castle. Then they steal the guild bank and make off like a king. Like the mmo eve, people will join a 'guild' just to get information, valuable items or to sabotage them. So part of the problem with thieves on uo is they're mostly seeking big rewards for very minimal time investment. They're not good thieves imo. You want thieving mechanics to be better? Be a better thief, stop playing the short game. Scamming should be allowed. But that's a separate subject.
