@chris @shadowjack @[insert thief/anti here] Patch notes reveal true era-stealing mechanics. [cited]

@Chris

I found these recently and would like to share these, without personal opinion, for all on our server to read and decide on their own whether they prefer true era mechanics or an adaptation of these mechanics that are said to benefit the growth and health of our server. Carry on.


02/24/1999 Patch Notes
Stealing

• The more armor you are wearing, the harder it will be to steal.
• You will not be able to steal from other players unless you join the NPC Thieves Guild, or unless the target is an opponent in a guild war.
• You can join the Thieves' Guild the usual way, by finding a Guildmaster and asking him to join. It will cost you an entrance fee.
• You cannot join unless your character has existed for at least one week.
• The character may not have any murders to his name.
• Being reported for murder whilst a member of the Thieves Guild will result in summary expulsion, and you will not be able to rejoin for at least one week.
• You cannot join the Thieves Guild unless you have at least a 60 in the Stealing skill.
• Members of the Thieves Guild have access to a special item, the disguise kit.
• The disguise kit looks like a wig stand.
• You can get one by asking the guildmaster about 'disguise.'
• It will cost you 700 gold.
• He'll only sell them to Thieves Guild members.
• When used:
  • You can elect to change your hairstyle.
  • If you are a male character, you can also change your facial hair.
  • The hair will come out gray, but you can use hairdye on it as usual.
  • It will also randomly generate a name for you.
  • All changes will last for 2 hours.
  • The disguise kit will only work for Thieves Guild members.
• Members of the Thieves Guild do not display professional titles on the paperdoll to anyone except themselves, regardless of skill level or fame.
• Members of the Thieves Guild can be attacked with impunity, because they are not allowed to report anyone for murder.
• In towns, it is still illegal to start fights, so Thieves Guild members are still safe from attack, as they can call the guards (unless of course, they just committed a crime).
• Just as with any guild, you can leave the guild by finding the Guildmaster and tellng him you quit. However, the Guild does not let go easily--it will take one week for leaving the guild to take effect.
• Victims of thieves can feel free to attack them, as they will not go gray for attacking a thief who has stolen from them in the last two minutes.
• There will be four possible outcomes to stealing:
  • True success: you get the item and are not noticed.
  • Partial success: you get the item, but are noticed.
  • Partial failure: you do not get the item, but are not noticed.
  • Total failure: you do not get the item, and your attempt is noticed.
  • The professional title for this skill is now "pickpocket.

[citation: http://stratics.com/w/index.php?title=UO:Publish_Notes_from_1999-02-24 ]





04/28/2000 Patch Notes
Thievery Changes

• You will be able to steal items from others while in combat. All requirements for stealing (such as being in the thieves guild) will still apply.
• You will not be removed from the thieves guild if you receive a murder count.
• Your cannot have any items (weapons, shields, spellbook, etc) in your hands when attempting to steal in combat.
• A thief will not be able to recall for two minutes after stealing an item.

[citation: http://stratics.com/w/index.php?title=UO:Publish_Notes_from_2000-04-28 ]




Perhaps a fair, neutral-oriented look into the old Patch Notes of OSI, will shed some light on the flared tempers on both sides and bring some sort of reason to us all involved. I scanned through 90 different pages of patch notes and developer town halls that discussed the direction of where they intended stealing to go. These two citations listed are those of which had any reference to the stealing mechanics and delivered tangible evidence that could offer a glimpse into what half of us seem to be forgetting.

The debate that will ensue, and seems to have ensued in the past is around "true success" - and if this means you stay blue upon true success. Evidence suggests that this is the case, but most feel it unfair. I don't have much of a stance either way.

If we could fix stealing stacks - so I'm not grabbing 1 gold from a 1,000 gold pile, you'd find me pretty happy overall with the stealing situation on this server.

• True success: you get the item and are not noticed.
• Partial success: you get the item, but are noticed.
• Partial failure: you do not get the item, but are not noticed.
• Total failure: you do not get the item, and your attempt is noticed.

I feel like trying to redefine something that is clearly stated, by arguing what it means to have "success" is clearly arguing semantics and at this point is beyond redundant, but yet so relevant in every argument I've seen presented. Weird.

@Random, the capacity in stealing regs (stacks) while fighting.

Chris - the slider option would be great - my only note here would be that stealing is often a very time sensitive activity - and the time required to push a slider around adds an additional tick in the time it takes me to grab someone loot. Not often the case, but probably worth of a discussion on how to implement,

Ew, I'd certainly not want some slider or pop up GUI prior to initiating a theft. Agree with that that would consume too much time, on a skill that timing is everything.

How about a system message asking how much of x would you attempt to steal? And then without a gump you could type a number and the amount would be attempted.

As far as flagging criminal or not after a noticed or unnoticed attempt at stealing. I believe if it was noticed, a system message would be delivered in the local area and the thief would flag grey. If it were actually unnoticed no system message would be delivered to bystanders in the area and the thief would not be flagged grey due to the theft being unnoticed.

Chris, great post. And agree 100%. I don't truly have an issue with not having a "stay blue" option. If "successful" meant you only turned grey to victim plus we lowered the guard wack rate, I think the system would be great. I may be in the minority here, but I tend to think stealing is a few small tweeks away from being great - I would love to hear if others felt the same way.

Obviously end game thieving content/instances would be unreal, but in all honesty, is a great community to begin with already.

Side note - misread your earlier comment re: sliders. Sorry

Chris,

Thanks for participating in this topic.

I believe some realism could be value added to the stealing skill if npc's and players behind NLOS objects (most importantly, building walls) weren't factored into the noticed equation.

Is this a part of the scripting options?

Also, I would like to thank you for your input on this discussion as well. I am under the impression that the perma-grey system was, grey to the victim for 2 minutes [or until the thief died], and blue to others until attacked. [[Food For Thought: Permagreyed thieves turn grey to all when attacked.]] After reading the Dev Chats from 98-2001 stealing was a struggle to find balance, and this is the same struggle we find here today. I also believe the Devs of the era horribly regreted ever implementing Stealing into UO from the context of their conversations. [Enter Item Insurance years later] It was constant complaining and the sheer amount of players causing disruption in the innocents' playtime that gave way to Trammel. [[Food For Thought: Add a bounty type system for those who stand up for the innocent and kill thieves.]] If enough people complain about their items being stolen and being PK'd in a dungeon, will there be a nerf to both or will Renaissance consider adding a second safer facet (i.e.: Trammel)? [Sorry, purely rhetorical.] I do agree that the certain system does make it hard for new players to understand the ins and outs of the player vs player system, but I also believe the (young) player status is a bit excessive and offers a considerable amount of time to learn the game's mechanics. With that being said, perhaps there is a shortcoming in the New Player System that fails to educate our newcomers to the dangers of the player vs. player playstyles and monsters' "aggro," (from what I've read.)

Instead of hindering end-game mechanics, maybe have someone author a more comprehensive tutorial, or lesson if you will, of the dangers that can affect our newcomers.

I also recall a time, maybe prior or later, that when a thief was killed, the stolen object would be returned to the victim within a certain time frame of the theft. Anybody remember that? Maybe that would be favorable here? I am also in agreement that the stealing system here isn't far, but maybe a few tweaks close to being perfected.

*Contradictory Alert*
Really, I love this server, but I also love the unfavored role of the thief. Stealing was and will be a pain to find balance in, and maybe you guys already have the correct fix for it. Having free range for years and now eating chopped liver (as it should be or not) can leave a bad taste in your mouth. I think everyone, including you, @Chris, acknowledges that stealing stacks does require a bit of tweaking in the thief's favor. I think gump prompts while trying to fight a mage to take their reagents would be way too cumbersome, so I hope if this is the direction our server is heading, it is completed with due process and with much thought. I, unlike others who fly off the handle like a dollar store hammer, am prepared to offer ideas and listen to opinions that can work as opposed to crying fits in the corner. With that being said, I do offer my hand to assist in any way I can to help educate anyone who does not understand our current PvP, stealing and/or mob's aggro.

Ideas:

• Red NPC's that can attack (young) players with a gump warning / (name) is attacking you! Obviously, less lethal than brigands, but enough to put up a good fight to a new player.
• Increased amount of NPC thieves with (LOW Stealing skill (1-4 stones capable) who can wander the world and steal at random (including prompts for (young) players) and flagging grey to all.
• An interactive walk-through area that describes the dangers that can and will be presented as you leave the (young) player program.
  • player killers
  • thieves
  • poison and it's various levels
  • monster's aggro
  • how you can unintentionally flag grey
  • looting blue corpses
  • attacking innocents
  • area effect spells
• Upon involuntary exit (excessive time and/or skill) of the New Player System, offer ~10-15 hours of additional protection around Sosaria so new players can see, but not yet feel the effects of our callous players' actions against one another.
  • A warning when a PK is nearby (similar to that of when a monster eyes a (young) player.)
  • Unable to place a house to prevent unforeseen problems with IDOC's.

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I hope this didn't derail the thread entirely, but while understanding the gives and takes in attracting and maintaining a playerbase, I am attempting to be the voice of reason that brings resolution to the players that say stealing is unbalanced, and the new players who have no clue.

Thanks for the read,
Joe


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After posting this, I was guard whacked for stealing a rune on my GM thief...

As a player It is easier to see the problem than to find a solution to it. We can help in bringing ideas and information but in the end we know that we are not the ones who will work the change. It is therefore tricky to get too involved ( see you soon Jack ).

I really hope all the great posts we have had lately will help in finding the "perfected" settings.


For anyone that is not a thief, how would you feel if GM magery fizzled circle 1 spells ? If a tamer would give an order to a chicken but chicken would go wild? If you tried to craft a studded armors and had many fails ( hehe )?

New players want to see interaction, actions, a little bit of chaos out there i believe. In the end i would be curious to compare the number of player that left because of the steal mechanics versus the number of player it attracted.


Keep the good work on, and it is definitely good to see Chris responding!