Capture the Flag Discussion Thread

I'm not upset. I'm having a fairly good time laughing about it and responding at my leisure. I'm sure Mes will be happy to claim I'm insincere in that regard too, if it suits him.

You really couldn't fill a whole page with those quotes from me, outside of Trash Talk and really....homophobic insults are hardly even in my repertoire unless I'm returning a favor like I did for Mes.

ps: full random is already slated for development. The discussion has been over and moot for several days now.

The discussion is clearly not about the end result but rather who was right and to be reigning lord over interwebs

Ok I will now admit it was my Good and Evil RP Forum accounts that voted for teams... They have always wanted to CTF together despite my insistence that I am incapable of handling two characters at the same time. I know I know very complicated.

*clicks unwatch thread*

can we get stealing turned on for ctf? combat thieves are feeling left out.

The more and more I play CTF's, the more and more I think that Magics need removed and Purple Pots need to damage everyone.

*waits for the group think crowd to tell me i'm wrong*

Well that's a negative Nelly attitude to have about it. I'd rather see purples removed rather than make them all damaging. I would be willing to wager you will never see an option added that will allow team killing, in UOR events of this nature. It has been said that removal would nerf the melee classes too hard but I disagree and feel that if a killing blow is needed on a runner, that's where a mage or archer teammate will come in handy.
I doubt any of the current players would stop playing without purples but many people would stop playing with team killing mechanics.

Have you run many of these with GM weapons, and how did you fare in your killing of the enemy team?

How about we just start running non-magic matches with purple pots that damage everyone and see how it all plays out. We've ran the current 'setup' for a while now.

Let's run another type for a while, say for half the matches, and see how it all plays out. In the end, having a variety of matches, ran for a significant amount of time, is the only TRUE way to figure these things out.

Otherwise we're all just taking our best guesses.

I think we'll find that just having variety, in general, will fix most issues.

Lightshade, have you ever played a dexer at CTF? What charname?

I've only ever seen you play a mage, and I've only ever seen you complain after every single CTF your team loses. So maybe if you play a dexer and lose, you will complain about mages (who are IMO more powerful at CTF, and yes I have played both on a number of occasions).

Dalavar,

I think you are under the impression that I talk to no one and play with no one during CTF's. Its a mistaken notion. Furthermore, I think you are under the impression that if I do not play a dexxer in a CTF, that I cannot watch other players, talk to other players in voice chat, and talk with other players via Party/Guild/IRC. I pay very close attention to what is going on in the matches. Running one of the largest guilds on this server, I see and talk to a LOT of people about a LOT of things. Unlike some people on this server, I don't just get a group of like-minded people....surround myself with them....and then listen to the group think. I talk to just about anyone.

A lot of the complaints about the CTF's that come my way I chuckle at because its a lack of knowledge on the player's part and I simply explain a few things to them. I talk to them about all sorts of basics like hot keys and voice chat. I explain to them how to setup a Next Target, Set Last Target, Last Target, and Target Nearest Enemy Hot Keys....if they show a knack for things...I go more in-depth on targeting. I tell them about setting up their healing hot keys such that they can heal and chug pots simultaneously. I go over their voice chat hot key and how it should be in a location that still allows them to Run/Cast/Heal. I go on and on with them because I know all too damn well how a LOT of things that get chalked up to "its broken" are simply a lack of understanding on the player's part. Hence me spending a LOT of my free time educating people instead of telling them that they're screwed up and to get better. Granted, I hate that there is such a steep curve for learning in order to be competitive, but I guess that's what you get when you've been playing Ultima Online since 1997.

I say all of that because I don't say/do much of anything without observing and thinking about things. What I see now is a fledgling problem with Runics in CTF matches making it a Dexxer's Paradise and it will only get worse as more and more people can afford/acquire them. I understand that the closed-quarters nature of many of the CTF arena's only help to give dexxers a bigger boon. Couple that with explode pots in their current implementation and its simply a lop-sided system. Some of the CTF maps are a bit more spread out, and that alleviates the problem somewhat...but again, as the Runics become more commonplace....this will go away.

I know that if I want to be successful in CTF's, I should log in my dexxer and run with a Vanq or higher. I've known it for quite some time and encouraged guild mates to give it a whirl and even donated the Vanq's for them. I've watched my guild mates succeed with it repeatedly. I play the mage to make sure I truly understand the mage's side of things because I quickly identified it as the crap side of things well before these discussions started.

Regardless, I do just fine in CTF's as long as my team is at least mediocre...and that's with people ganging up on me 7 deep at times. If you end up on a terrible team like I did last night, then oh well, can't do anything with that and such is life.

At the end of the day, though, everything I just said is completely irrelevant.

Yup, I said it. Everything I just said doesn't matter one bit.

What matters is that we've setup a system that has such a High Bar for Competitive Entry as a result of Runics/Magics/Purple Pot Mechanics. It completely turns off the majority of new-to-ctf, but experienced players, and is a pretty much a no-go for the casual weekend warrior. Its a complete steamroll to a new player.

If CTF's are about giving the Elite with Valorite Runics and endless funds for Purple Pots some End-Game content...then we have succeeded and I have fun killing them.

However...

If CTF's are about good, clean fun for everyone....then we have completely failed.

How many of you, fighting to keep this and that the way it is, have taken a step back and honestly asked yourself, "How could we make this good fun for everyone?"

I think i'm alone in that.

I think team work is what wins not the runic weapons

I've got purely owned by a competent team of mages playing my dexer with a badass hally.

I g it my share of kills but let's see I think i had 6 that match compared to pax romains 27..

As u are aware he is a mage..

And mages dominated almost every game I've played.

To go a step further if you are playing a ranged character and continuously getting owned by a melee character i would check your tactics..

You have the advantage in every way as a mage

I don't know how many times I have to say that I, personally, do just fine in CTF's. I'm typically on the under dog team, too.

Just because I think they need changed doesn't mean I can't be successful in them.

Then what's the issue..

i play mage

Lightshade, I'm under the impression that you have only ever played a mage (seems like you're confirming this), wear a bear mask during the event, and whine/complain in IRC after every match your team loses.

It's great that you talk to other people, however plenty of knowledgeable and competent players have come in here and been completely mistaken about things like how much damage they're being dealt. So I figured I'd try to offer my .02, considering I've done CTF's with a

Lumberjacker
Fencer
Macer
Tank Mage
Heal Mage

Dexers are good for racking up a lot of kills,particularly lumberjackers. Macers are a poor man's lumberjacker. I guess fencers can hope to get lucky and get a clutch paralyzing blow here and there, but are otherwise equivalent to macers. Tank Mage and Heal/Stun/Scribe/Nox Mages are the templates that actually play a strong strategic role in CTF. I play my dexer when I don't feel like thinking.

The reason the team with a lot of dexers won last night was because they were better players than the team with the mages. I mean that both individually, and as a team. Given two equally skilled and coordinated teams of players, I'd bet on the team with the higher portion of mages every time.

I know you keep trying to boil down my discussions and suggestions about the mechanics of CTF's into a completely irrelevant and separate premise that I am just whining and being a sore loser, but this simply isn't even remotely true. It is also not at all constructive in any way, shape, or form and shows me quite a lot about your character. I have had the same suggestions for quite some time now. The only difference is that I am now discussing these things publicly and I only did that after other people took the discussion public. I have consistently made every attempt to discuss the mechanics and rules of the CTF matches, yet people like you keep trying to sling mud and call me names. It speaks volumes about you all. Feel free to keep up with the nonsense, but any logical person knows full well that you are just wasting everyone's time.

I continue to talk about mechanics and many of you continue to talk about me. It is pathetic. If you want to continue to talk about me, then participate in the thread dedicated to All That is Pathetic About Lightshade and quit derailing a much needed conversation about CTF's.

In regards to me only ever having played a mage, this also is not true at all. I even tried playing a Dexxer without Trapped Pouches, Hot Keys, Etc.... Straight-up old school 2x clicking everything with bandages and GM Gear just to prove a point and I JUST barely missed out on a trophy. I have got Flag Master, Medic and Killer trophies on characters from bards with hiding to stun mages. As far as a Bear Mask, I MAY have worn that 2x and only because I wasn't thinking about it at all and was busy taking care of things in real life. If you are really focused on that, have fun, i'll get back to discussing the actual mechanics of the CTF.

Not slinging mud, just bringing supporting evidence to back up why I think your perspective is skewed.

As you finally mention above, you played a dexer once, and with weird arbitrary restrictions that no one else plays with. I have no idea what relevance this has to anything. So we're back to you only playing mages and complaining that a character you have (but never choose to play) is overpowered. This I think is a skewed perspective.

Not to mention... you used a character that's good at one thing, and you almost did the most of that thing. What point were you trying to prove? I could join CTF with 100 Magery, 100 Meditation, 100 INT, and no other skills, and win the Healer award. Does that mean mages are overpowered? No, it means I brought a character that was good at one thing and I did that one thing the most and got a trophy for it.

When 14% of the time you're getting hit, it's to an un-armored area, this leads to a skewed perspective on how much damage weapons are doing.

I guess you can call this "focusing on you", but when YOU make general statements, and YOU do not have the general experience to back them up, I think it's fair to call into question.

It's not skewed, it's real. People wear masks. People come naked. People wear normal armor or GM barbed.

There's no reason to suggest that we should only consider players wearing invuln - why would we - they aren't.

This isn't about people showing up and giving themselves a handicap. This is what the majority of people wear and have access to. This is what we should balance the game around. Anything less is explicitly making it a system that is advantageous to the wealthy - and I'd like to think that's not in the spirit of what many people love and remember about ultima online pvp.

I reject the idea that everyone should use valorite runics and everyone should use equivalently high end armor.


Fortunately valorite weapons are so expensive that they aren't likely to see regular use in pvp. Unfortunately, CTF has created a no-item-risk environment. This is also made worse by being on foot which makes it harder to get away once someone is on top of you.

There's no question in my mind personally that dexers with high end weapons are king at getting kills. Especially once you realize how much of a problem mana regen can be in a CTF environment.

Yes mages make better healers and in my opinion better flag carriers. The former because of ranged healing and the latter because of a larger mana pool for quick heals and free'd up hands.

In my opinion the bronze to agapite runic range is the sweet spot for reasonable weapon damage. But even then, it is still a rich man's game and I'd rather CTF be an event that is accessible (and winnable) by all. You shouldn't have to spend house money to compete in it, atleast in my vision for CTF. We advertise it as a casual, no risk, anyone is welcome system. There's even system messages to bait in the less informed. Why should it be a system that only colluders and try hards can succeed in? Why shouldn't showing up with a standard set of equipment like you'd wear out in the world be good enough?

Its a well known fact that a single ebolt can kill someone at 27% hp

A standard set of equipment is certainly good enough. That's why I don't understand all of this. I've gone to plenty of matches with just GM equipment (see Dalavar Tankmage, who of course is not actually a tank mage because I'm terrible at naming), and felt like I contributed plenty to my team. I'm not a regular pvper, and I never use this character outside of CTF, so I am even in your target demographic!

Oh, you don't even need 50 Magery to win that trophy in a 2-Team Ruined Town CTF if experience is any indication.

Its nice that a 50/50 character can win a healer trophy and all, but that is just one narrow aspect and doesn't address any of the other things i've brought up.