Capture the Flag Discussion Thread

I would like more players to play CTF's so that eventually there is more than one match a day. And I'm willing to help in any way can so that everyone enjoys it.

Now:

The only argument you guys serves is : We want to play together and we want to win. Here is how we win (awesome picture).

I think we get all this. Capture the flag, heal, block with stone wall --> better chances to win.


But what does it have to do with helping the CTF improves ?
Some people clearly seem to think that playing against unfair teams is a big enough turn off.

Random teams would fix that problem. Not the best solution, obviously it could random all the best pvpers in the same team, but unless the players grows up and try to makes even and challenging teams it seems the only solution.

Creating a CTF team of your own that you organize inside a voice program is ALSO a solution.

There are some people coming to this thread wanting randomization, and that's ok to an extent, but you cannot punish those that are organized. If you place me on a team against random opponents it's not going to take me long to identify who to kill based on their level of skill or time in game. Randomization fixes nothing. If I know that a new player "John Doe" is on the enemy team and it takes me literally 2 swings to kill him then guess who gets my attention and guess who won't want to CTF ever again because they got my attention.

Just because CTF is a server wide event doesn't mean that it's something everyone should be able to do with absolute ease.

The people complaining that we are an "unfair team" are the same people that refuse to even TRY to organize a team of their own. We are only ever 2-5 people depending on the size of the CTF match. It's not hard to get 1-2 other people in addition to yourself and get organized.

How is having a team so god damn unfair? We take random new players on our team every single match. It's not like it's 10 of us stomping people every match. Believe it or not we have more close games than we do blow outs.

This is an MMO that revolves around making friends and doing things with friends. You would rather have the game create friends for you.

Random games are ok a couple times a week. Don't punish the people with enough social skills to ask "Hey guys, want to make a CTF guild?"

I vote for giving you a trophy a day if it bring fairness into the teams.

Random, you and I are not that different.

We're in similar situations. We're both newish to the server, we both like CTF and we both enjoy feeling like we can contribute to a win. Right?

An observation: It seems like we have different approaches to solve the "how do I get to a place where I feel competent and useful in CTF?" dilemna.

My approach has been to identify who does well at CTF, get on their team, be friendly and likeable, learn how to improve at CTF.

My results: I've gotten encouragement, some simple instructions that elevated my thinking about my approach to CTF, gifted equipment to help me become a worthy opponent, and an action plan to get with people who want to compete against high level competitors

Your approach seems to be a suggestion to rewrite the rules/scenario to improve your chances at being useful/competent in CTF in order to alleviate your perceived "unfair disadvantage". I might add that your tone is argumentative, and you cling fast to your solution rather than consider other options.

Your results: Seems like frustration and conflict with your fellow CTF participants.

I suggest you refine your approach, get a team going or just start coordinating with the Random team you end up with (see what i did there?)

There is a way where we all win here. I know you want to do well in CTF. So do I. Get organized (just a little bit... won't hurt, I promise!) and things can improve. Try it out! You have nothing to lose.

Thanks, and all you say is right.

If I wanted to be part of an elite pvp team for CTF I would at least put efforts that way. But i'm not sure i can keep up and be there every match.

So for the casual player, that love UOREN and want to log in and have that nice adrenaline rush you get from a CTF match, we got to admit it's harder to enjoy the actual team selection system.

Im in no way trying to break anything, and if there is another solution to let everyone (not only Random or Cynic) enjoy a good and fair match then please !


(Thanks about your concerns, i like my friends list as it is and I enjoy ctf's matchs as they are)

Cool, mang! If you're havin fun, that is the whole point of this. It just seemed like you weren't having fun, so I wanted to suggest solutions.

/me flashes thief brotherhood gang signs

First off, I don't really care that some guys have a good, well-oiled machine going in the CTF's. I tend to do alright whether i'm on a team on voice chat or not. I just adapt.

The issue is that you apply your life situation to everyone else's when you make statements and completely erroneous assumptions like you said above. Its not about social skills and making a CTF guild for the majority of players nor has it ever been about that.

Its about real life.

Simply put, most people can't balance real life with the in-game CTF times in order to get teams together frequently and consistently like some groups do. I know I would LOVE to have even 3 of the 100+ members of my guild be able to commit to being on at the same time consistently, but it simply does not happen as most of us have wives/kids/etc.. that simply keep us from doing that. We all randomly meet up and sometimes there is like 20 of us online actively and sometimes there's 2 of us online actively. I don't know how many times i've heard kids screaming in the background or significant others calling for a guild mate to return to real life.

Its not a good or a bad thing, its simply life.

So stop accusing people of not wanting to or being unable to work together. Its usually not the case at all. I think its GREAT that some people are able to get together at the same times with some consistency, but that is not the norm for our player-base in any way.

So when you write off the Random Teams because you assume that a group of people just don't want to work together or talk to one another, you are simply wrong. They're not ignorant nor are they anti-social.

If Random Teams punishes you for having a group online at the same time all the time, then Non-Randomized Teams is punishing people for not being able to have a consistent group online at the same time, all the time.

The simple fix is to just do a bit of both and heaven forbid....cater to more of your players.

Regardless, i'll do fine either way, adapt to whatever is thrown at me, and be thankful for the fun that I do have. That does not, however, mean that I don't think some changes are in order.

Being one of the 3 players you mention i figured i should chime in on this, I don't take what your saying as insulting, but I would like to reply with my point of view.

To start i know people have organized teams, so i joined the orange team because it had no players on it, i figured the group players had already piled into the other full teams.

I joined the CTF just to have fun, and i did have fun, and winning a trophy was the last thing on my mind, i don't kid my self into thinking, being new, that I could even come close to most kills in a match. 4 team CTF to me really is quite chaotic, and i did my best to attack who i felt needed to be attacked at the time.

If I knew CTF was a group only thing and that joining solo was an issue, I most likely wouldn't have joined, and I'm not saying change it one way or another, i did not start playing on UOR for CTF matches, and have plenty of fun doing a variety of other things on the server. CTF or not, I'm here to play Ultima.

My point really is that some people play just for fun, not for fame/gain.

Get off your horse, you're not the only people with lives. CTF's are scheduled, it's not hard to either say "hey guys I can't make this one" or "yeah, I'll be there"

Real life affects all of us but somehow we were still able to get a team together, for 30 minutes a night, scheduled weeks in advance.

However, we've been agreeing here that a random CTF would be a welcomed change, but, I have been disagreeing that a simple randomization would magically increase participation or change the end result of new players still getting steam rolled.

First let me say that I months ago acknowledged your frustration with complaints about this system because you told me that you worked hard on it and wanted it to be finished so you move on to other projects. I said my piece back then about what I thought was more ideal, and when those colluding players spoke out with such volume and frequency of posts against it I just decided to let them have this and no longer interfere. If they enjoy it, perhaps it's a good thing and it just doesn't have to involve me (or others, as I vainly think I have the interest of others at heart in most things.) In truth, on foot, no looting, scheduled, low consequence is not in any way something I look for in UO pvp and I think the biggest thing for me to do is say 'let those who want it most have it their way.'

But since this thread is here and the questions are asked...and because this thread will be carried by the coalition of try-hards that wish to protect their loot/newbie pinata and we will not likely hear the voices of casuals...

• Remove all rewards for winning/losing

I support this. Alternately I support the idea of 1 plat rewards all around instead of a 4 plat reward on the winning team. I think this would sufficiently incentivize people to without feeling like they need to join the stacked team. But as far as rewards are concerned there need not be any in my opinion. Just as I think they should be kept out of factions. All of the comparisons to farming and other methods of making money are terribly weak. Farming is work you do to make gold. There are some people that enjoy it, Zagyg comes to mind. But CTF is supposed to be fun and recreation at heart. You go to work and get paid for it. Disneyland does not pay you for bringing your family to it.

Is it terrible for there to be platinum rewards for winning CTF? No, not really. But I think it creates a slippery slope that must be considered. The last time I glanced at CTF Cynic had 3 characters in CTF, each on different teams. This is great for Cynic if he makes 6 platinum this way. But is this fun for those players that have a portion of their team represented by a bot that sits in the flag room? And there are more issues than that. It very much motivates players to try their hardest to get on the stacked team instead of joining any team and hope for a good ('challenging') game. Why would they do this when they get paid the most for forming a coalition that stomps newbies and guys like jake into the dirt every night? What about that is deserving of a trophy, by the way? It should read top idiot not flag master.

• Disallow players who live together and play ctf together from both being able to join a match (IP limiter)

I support this too. Or rather, I think my strategy would be to set this limiter 'ON' by default. Then remove it on a case by case basis according to the credibility of the player requesting more CTF'ers iin their household and the feedback from witnesses once disabled.

• Force randomize CTF teams so people cannot choose to play together.

I think this would solve the most problems and complaints. I also truly believe it would greatly increase participation and positive feedback. Even those colluding players that rushed into this thread and made pages of posts trying to prevent these things would quickly come to enjoy it as well, in my opinion. I think the game should sort you onto teams once the game begins (not allowing you a chance to leave and try again for another team), and I might even go a step further and force incognito on players until the end of the match when the scores are revealed. Many players would still be able to tell who is who, but I think it would help them stop thinking of it as a system they can try to work their coalition of allies around (not attacking each other, only capping X team's flags and teaming up on X players) and help them accept their temporary allies and just try to have a good time.

Also randomized teams will mean a likely balance of casual, new, and expert players. The no-lifer's are going to play anyways. Believe that. And they will enjoy the game even if they have to work a little to win. Maybe even more. Every one of them came in here and said they already enjoy competing against their friends. Here's a great opportunity for them to do it. And it will clearly benefit the casual veteran and the newer players.

• Remove all 4 team matches and return to just 2 team matches.
  Note: Almost all 2 team matches are even close as one team gets ahead, and the other team tends to quit, this could possibly continue even with randomized teams
• Remove CTF completely so that some players do not feel cheated by other players and replace them with two 1v1/2v2 tournaments a week.

I don't see any reason to do these things. If 15 people enjoy it and 15 people don't then let's just agree that it's a success. As I decided for myself months ago, it's not for me, but I will still call it a success because of those people that enjoy it and attend it daily.

• Is it against the rules for 3-5 people to organize and join the same team each match, or should this behavior be punished via randomization because it provides an unfair advantage?

I'm not sure the wording to this question is completely fair. But to answer the question, no. I don't think it breaks any rules for 3-5 people to join the same team. I just think it could be better. I also think this wording significantly downplays the reality of that coalition of players. It's not 3-5 players. That may be the maximum they can get on one team typically, but from my experiences (granted months ago), their pool of players overflowed their team and spilled to other teams where they went on not attacking each other and ganging up on their enemies or the easy targets. In times where I would make an attempt to bring a comparable team, they would contact players from other servers to log in and join their group. But I'm sure they'd like to believe that they're just a bunch of good sports that figured out the magic of voice chat and that's the only reason they have dominated every event for months. I think it's cute to listen to them all empty out a keg of purples into their packs before a match, then watch them unload them on the respawn of new players.

• Is it against the rules for players to turtle or strategically hold the flag of another team?

I think this is a legitimate and intelligent strategy. If you are ahead in points the onus is on your enemy to kill your carrier and capture your flag (or kill a lot of players somehow). But I could get behind a reduction of the time you can hold a flag. I would prefer it go back to it's spawn instead of killing the carrier. Some games have handled this by making the carrier take more damage over time. But I think that may be over complicated for our needs.

• Should a player be banned from events for going afk during a match?

Maybe. Perhaps a point system with temporary bans would be fair. AFK, get reported, staff see it, somehow prevent the player from using the sign up sheet for two weeks.

• Is it against the rules for one team to not automatically target another team. Ergo selecting targets based on who they are vs simply attacking every orange player indiscriminately?

I have no idea how you would possibly enforce this without seeming really arbitrary and causing the staff and annoying amount of time wasted on refereeing and answering pages/complaints. But I think randomized teams and/or incognito would go a long way in helping this.


I'd also like to make a complaint about the 4 player hythloth map. It would be nice if this was adjusted to have felucca push-through mechanics and re-equip armor upon death. If this wasn't possible I would rather it be removed from the rotation.



Everything that's said here by those I would call colluding players - those of Blaise's mumble server or that loosely represent minax and TB - Blaise, Cynic, Bogugh, Pax, Amfekk-, Mandevu, and bart - I think their opinions should be taken with a grain of salt. No, a bowl of salt. They have profited from and gamed this system. I don't think their intentions or actions have displayed good sportsmanship or a desire for fairness at all. They have only claimed it verbally.

The testimonies that weigh most heavily in this thread in my opinion are those of Airframer and Lightshade.

Airframer is in the inner circle of a group of friends that are more skilled and heartier pvpers than the players that have been winning CTF for months. He has every bit of the means to collude better than current winners. But he came here and asked for a better and more fair system instead.

I've observed Lightshade and he's got the mettle to be one of the best players in CTF. He clearly understands the game and is a skilled player. He could easily join the circle jerk that dominates every night. But he came here and said that we could do better and make it more accessible to casual and newer players.

To me those are the opinions that matter. People that understand the system and see it for what it is and instead of looking to squeeze it for what they can or beat up on the little guys they asked for the fairest system possible.

And I recognize that this is all a hassle to change anything. And if that's the case...then just don't change anything. Be honest with the complainers and say that this is the system in place and to not participate if they don't enjoy it. Sure as hell worked for me. Better that some players should enjoy it than none at all.

btw, Cynic and Blaise's faces by the end of this post:

More like this.



I'm not even going to bother formulating a response to your madness and agenda against -3-, Blaise, Bart, or anyone else you want to dislike for one reason or another.

However, while we're on the topic of who's testimonials to hold any value on, I would be willing to bet yours is taken with that same bowl of salt.

Oh, do you think I posted more in this thread than you did?

Please.

You will read my post multiple times, and then you will not be able to help but respond. Or at the very least send your girlfriends to respond for you. Right now you're typing out angry messages to them. You're fuming and we both know it.



I'll get it started for you.

Something something personal attack, something something dodge the topic completely, something something call me delusional

Get to work.

Get a group be organized.... These new people can do that, maybe they are trying or have....

The complaint I hear from them is that:

• How fun is it to be NEW and dying to join in on the fun to get a taste of it only to be beat down because of weapons/ gear/ teams of purple pots being tossed non stop every time?
• Too new to afford an alchemist to make their own purple kegs
• Just built their characters spent money on training and getting a house can not afford a fancy weapon

A lot of these people coming to CTF are fairly new and trying it out. They can make groups, but may not be on the same level as items as the "organized" teams have. Please take that into consideration why some of these new people are complaining when something that is supposed to be a fun for all really isn't.

Nothing can truly be made fun for all because most of us are humans and that implicitly indicates variety that cannot be met by any one solution.

I think we're in vague agreement on a few points:

Rewards: Some for all or none at all. The assumptions about who's profiting here are pretty silly. Having rewards is nice and makes players excited. That drives them to try harder to do better to accomplish goals they may have. There's literally nothing detrimental about giving out platinum for playing a game. We already get it for idling at home so what's the big problem?

Teams: Team Choice is not for everyone so Random and Team matches on a regular basis. Perhaps with alternating schedules, could suit everyone's CTF fancy. That said, in regards to whomever was saying that it's just not for the solo player, is absolutely incorrect. Any player that can do what is needed in CTF, can be a great part of any team. There are very few amazingly simple things one can practice to be effective in CTF: Kill whomever has your flag, or die trying. Capture any enemy flag, or die trying. Heal whomever you can on your team that is doing either of the two aforementioned things. Even a 50/50 newbie can truly be effective. Get in there, get your gheal on with the free-use and chase around your teammates or even just carry flags. Most of that is just running and potions. Emphasis on DIE TRYING. I spend many games of this nature with a seriously gnarly negative kill:death ratio.

Collusion: While we can throw accusations and assumptions around all day, the only true solution you'll find would be entirely random lobbies where everyone is named "player" as soon as they join and all communication be disabled. Simply adding randomization to teams will not assuage the concerns. In regards to the absolute fact that players will quit/join until they are on the team they want, I posit the mechanic that once you join an RCTF (Random Capture The Flag) lobby, you are placed in waiting and cannot leave or you forfeit your chance to play that round.

AFK/Alts: Implement AFK gump jailing that flags players every 30s they are idle in a CTF match. Make the jail sentence increments more mild than the mining penalties and have flags wear off over time. Players do legitimately have to leave and while we want to discourage abuse we don't want to penalize adults with responsibilities.
Humans do share networks and I have had up to four legitimate heartbeats logged into this shard along with my own. The default should be disallowed with blocks removed on request. Multiple AFK failures should flag this account unable to participate in CTF or the IP no longer allowed to multi. I'm pretty sure Telamon can see if you're actually disconnected or intentionally idling so if you have to leave CTF in an emergency, log off.

While I do so enjoy personal attacks and am always flattered to be the target of them, I don't really find this to be an appropriate venue for such discourse. Perhaps we could start a fresh thread in Trash Talk to air our grievances or assumptions about what other players are doing or why.

who broke blaise

I assumed the team randomizer would happen after signups are closed, kind of like it works now for the overflow players to even out teams.

It's not safe to assume much about how these events work or can work. The examples given are from other shards that have done the same. Typically it would be a sign-up book/stone and once signed up you get put on a team that you can see the rosters for in a gump. If you get there early, with your friends, you can easily game it to stack as desired.
Thus, I guess (don't really know what code is already out there for this) that if we want to do something special, Telamon will have to work his magic and make something unique to suit the desire for perfection. The Random lobby just can't have any visibility into who is one which team. However, if that is the case there definitely should be a 2-3 minute window of time where you are put in the starting room with your team, before the match starts. This will allow for players to get in the appropriate Mumble channel and/or toss party invitations to their teammates (or maybe even a quit option right then in case people want to be stubborn pricks about who they are teamed up with).

Ya that seems way easier to manage.