Griefing

I'm not sure if this thread has anything to do with any conversations in IRC yesterday, but this is essentially how one of them played out, and I've seen it happen before:

- A player complains in IRC about being killed by a group of reds (or maybe a surprise attack by a blue), having something nice stolen from them, or being house looted.
- Another player or group of players tells them to get over it, it's part of the game, it's a legitimate play-style, and generally seems excessively defensive about it.
- The player, obviously upset, says they are just tired of being killed while farming and just wants to be left alone to play the game.
- The defensive players say something like "uh oh...here come's the g word", and is otherwise the first one to use or mention the word, thus fulfilling their own prophecy.

I agree more or less with @JimmyTheHand 's definitions on what is and is not "griefing", although if I were forced to pick a side I would side with those who he likely considers "trammies" simply because of the tone of those who are excessively defensive of play-styles that tend to greatly annoy other players and go about it in such a nasty, sarcastic, condescending way.

The "griefing" that occurs on UOR seems to be insignificant compared to other shards from what I've read. We have it very good here and there are plenty of ways to avoid unpleasant interactions with other players. But I do think that most PKs are jerks and cowards who are afraid to go up against players who could stand up to them and will never have even a fraction of the PvP skill, generosity and trustworthiness of Skunk Ape.

For me, the defensiveness as you put it is because the g-word has historically been used as a precursor for the n-word.

Nerf.

Generally when the g-word is used as a precursor for the n-word, the anecdote related to its usage is explained and followed up by either the community agreeing with the g-word users usage, or disagreeing. THAT is the front line of the war against the N-word, not in some patronizing forum post instructing people of the correct definition and insisting everyone see and use it in that way.

The Saoghail will soon be recruiting.
Membership guarantees acceptance into Valhalla.

The guild will be dedicated to tracking the activities of, and hunting criminals and murderers.

You been absent this past week? Methinks you’ve missed crucial context.

soon (tm)

And my two cents.

The guy who runs by my house and kills all my horses is griefing.
He gets nothing in return for his effort. I on the other hand... Just lost five friggin horses.
Thanks. -- P.S. This dudes heads. (All of them.) Decorated my doorstep for a week.
Haven't seen him since.
~Bows.~

But this guy recieves all the support from the community, meanwhile... y'all just tell me to stable my horses.
(Nobody actually did this, but its a good metaphor for what I was told.)

Moving on.
The guy who steals my axe out of my backpack in town...

That's game mechanics, and as much as it pisses me off... Game mechanics do make it possible to counter it from happening.
On the other hand, I've lost items, and normally, I have no idea there is even someone there to take them.
That, and, I really want to know how the hell he gets into my backpack, opens a bag, and then steals my ten pound axe from within the container that is INSIDE my backpack. (All without me ever noticing him.)

Idk, I haven't made a thief to steal from my own characters yet, so maybe I'm missing some crucial game mechanic here?. Either way, enjoy your new axe, ~Tips hat~

But, as for Pk's...
This is why you are losing players.

So first off, I'm not defending Pk's, nor am I saying we need trammel, or that they should all be banished, but, from a new player's perspective - When 3 guys, riding three million gold, and wearing half a blessed mil a piece, stomp up and take me out. -- and then turn around and loot a house before it even occurs to me that I might have forgotten to take my keys out of my pack before I left home.

Yeah. That pissed me off... Three obvious vets, rolling up on me and killing me from across the screen before I even knew what to do. But that is a playstyle, that pissed me off, but that isn't why I consider that this server may not be for me. -- It wasn't having a house looted, it wasn't even when they showed up at my second house and killed all of my horses just to spite me. - I mean wtf am I supposed to do, it's 3 vs 1. I can't fight you...

Now we're griefing, but this still isn't why I consider this server might not be worth my time, which is why I was still playing when I was killed by a blue, and then was yet still playing when I died again to another player. I'm omitting the few narrow escapes here, and also all the PvM deaths. - But basically, these are all mechanics. This is all part of what makes the game a challenge.

So, this was me in IRC yesterday, and what I asked was; 'are there any guilds that hunt PK's'

The response I got was, 'Nah, set up a recall macro.' 'Don't do this, don't do that.' -- Which don't get me wrong, all good advice, but... all the advice I was given involved giving way to the PK's and supporting their playstyle. Where's the opposition?

Telamon himself suggested making a FISHERMAN.
The message wasn't directed at me, but I was basically told, along with everyone else who was having a lot of trouble with pk's.
'To go make a fisherman.'

It was like the first commandment, dropped by Tela himself.
'Thou shalt fish for the pk's. So that they will be well fed.'

~Facepalm~

That kind of response to new players will lose you players.
I'm not here to fish. Don't get me wrong, I have a character that will fish, but...
Ugh, I'm tired of typing.

Where is theopposition. So many people, so many complaints about pk's.
It's a game mechanic, it doesn't need changed.

It needs in-game opposition.

All people use the term griefed as a way to add more rules. People would rather change the rules instead of just playing smart. I like loose rules. Then again I came from a time when you started with 100 gold, only had 35 stat points to play with instead of 50, a map so filled with houses you would be thankful for a small, everywhere being farmed top to bottom and everyone fighting for it, only one account, tougher skill gains for sure. This server is a cake walk.

^ I remember 8x8ing stealth on a boat for what seemed like an entire year lol. Same with stealing dyetubs from packys

Meh! *shrugs*

If someone's calling it griefing, respect ought to be given to the fact that the complainant has arrived to a point at which they feel particularly helpless/powerless. Certainly they can change their circumstance by "going somewhere else," "getting ressed somewhere else," "logging off," etc., but all of that is sort of besides the point. It's almost certain that they feel that they've lost control of their experience.

I guess that, to me, the point invokes a balancing act between coercive gameplay and responsible gameplay. We all agreed to play under a Felucca ruleset as we made our characters (that's the 'coercive' part), but there's more nuance to it than that (regarding all aspects of the argument; pros, cons, etc.). I've seen the word "sociopath" tossed around a few times, and it makes sense: don't be a damn sociopath. That's the 'responsible' part.

Obviously, it's just a game. I've made that argument myself (usually in response to ultra-serious ego-driven dudebros).

But, it's a dying game. A dying game with an aging, transient population. If someone is chill 99% of the time and complains about griefing 1% of the time, it's my hope that people would try to keep them rather than ridicule them. Even if it's 50/50, work should be done to keep them. If that 1% of badtimes or 50% of badtimes is mishandled, that person will spend 0% of their time here.

I think the most important thing is to understand where a person's coming from when they're complaining about griefing, and to really consider what effect your response may a) have on them and b) have on the shard's population.

Exclusivity breeds elitism, which breeds contempt, which drives people away. While that goes for the people shouting "griefer!" too, it's not an excuse for griefing behavior or behavior that causes folks to feel griefed.

that's my point.

I'm sorry you had that experience man. Yeah, PKs killing noobs in gank squads is part of the game unfortunately. I quit this server multiple times because any time I tried to go out mining, I got PKed.

I went through several options.

1. I have dragons I want to go to dungeons to farm some gold and have some fun. PKs came on average every 10-15 minutes at any of the reasonable good locations. Lich Lords, Blood elementals, t2A, even Khaldun, Elder Gazers.

2. Mining with gargoyle pickaxes for elementals to get marble ingots and such. Got PKed constantly, was getting killed at least once every day I mined.

3. So those two things weren't working, so I moved on to fishing for AMIBs. It takes a while, but I was never PKed doing this. I could go do AMIBs myself they aren't overly difficult. So that is an option I can do.

So that is possibly why Telamon recommended that to you.

I don't even farm anymore. I don't see the point, PKs have it on lock down. So I don't see a point in going.

Some people have suggested going to farm at a different point in the day. Well, I can't go at 5AM eastern in the morning or before that. I work. I sleep. It's just not viable.

The other suggestions I got was to learn from my mistakes. Well I did, I just stopped doing that activity. Even if I was able to recall out, that spot and others are now hot bc PKs are running their runebook circuits. If it's not 1 gank squad it's another. Even if you do manage to escape your time is done bc if you go back the PK will return.

Now I have been playing Ultima for a while on UOSA and here, so I'm not a noob. But imagine all this shit happening to a noob player. They won't want to play anymore.

I don't really know what to say to you to make you to stay just that you should do what makes you happy. You should be having fun playing this game. If you're not having fun that's an issue. Maybe if you can find friends try going out farming with 3-4 people and 2 dragons each. Makes it harder for PKs to kill, even ganksquads. Of course, then the money you want to make is severely depleted splitting it with more people.

Your very first post in the thread contradicts this statement.

I do agree with a lot of what some people are saying regarding the pk culture here. Definitely not conducive to player acquisition or retention.

That is not to say pk guilds shouldn't hunt blues. Far from it.

I'd love to see an anti pk guild, they were around back in the day. I think I mentioned this when first playing here, if I didnt, I thought it.

I believe part of the reason it doesn't exist in the way it could, is that unfortunately people just can't be bothered and/or pvp orientated players gravitate toward pking instead. "If you can't beat em, join em" mentality.

Perhaps more folks need to turn to some very excellent bands for inspiration in battle!

WARNING: Metal
Manowar, Let the God's Decide:


WARNING: More aggressive metal
Rebellion, Taste of Steel:


WARNING: Growly metal! (and a guild in another games theme song!)
Amon Amarth, Guardians of Asgaard




Just some of many awesome songs from all three bands!

I am a proponent of naming and shaming; maybe post in the Trash Talk subforum?

Happy to help you learn some basics regarding this, a fair few people know that I've helped with both pack and house security hit me up!

I agree!

I find multiple posts all in a row from the same person to be griefing

It's a simple game, always lock up, use a barrier and detect when using your doors. Lock that key down at the door or in a secure on the steps.
Never carry what you can't afford to lose.
Always keep reflect up.
Use a magic locked box to secure your regs and the like in your pack, throw a robe or 5 over it to help block sight.
Recall/Gate escape hotkeys are not just handy, but required on squishy characters; use seperate tiles and not the same rune for both.
When a pack runs through, go farm elsewhere, dungeons are hot spots for sure cos the gold is good.
Don't accept a res if you don't want to have to get another.
Most importantly, make friends. Even if you farm seperately, they're a quick shout away.
Also, you have 3 accounts, use them. Hide a pvp toon nearby and switch up asap to help save your tamer, or to get vengeance.
And if you're using dragons, keep them guarding and keep them between you and any reds, they might keep trying to take shots at them to lure them off and split your defences up, but hold them firm and dont be afraid to kill a few fools, that's where I find most blues fail, they give up immediately on seeing reds, or more common they don't see anything til it's too late - hide your razor spam and keep the journal up, red text stands out.

tldr - it's ironic how defensive a thief gets about the term 'griefing' and his/her playstyle

Griefing is an act that causes grief, whether the intent was to get rich or cause grief is irrelevant.

One thing I wanted to point out is that @JimmyTheHand did not provide a single legitimate example of what he considers griefing.
Let's take a look at what was in the OP post (red text is mine):

Griefing does not exist, problem solved, close the thread!

@Twister Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my examples. But you're right about killing for fun. That to me counts as 'to their benefit'. Which, I did mention.

As for blocking someone in like I said, its not a bug. There are items and situations where you can do this, where no exploitation is needed.

@JimmyTheHand yeah, I also started realizing that now about blocking... although it must be a very very rare situation.