New Guild System Discussion

I have a hard time figuring out what orcs would want with taking over umie towns.......but most likely we WILL go Chaos because its a natural extension of RPing an orc.I hope a lot of umies go Order,and for those umies that go Chaos we will most likely be sending you a war invite....

Gideon is synonymous with "gold sink" haha

I don't think that RP'ers really need any help in generating their own kind of competition. Factions are great for that. Plus, once you add forced competition features it tends to alienate those who want to RP completely peaceful classes. For folks like me who aren't able to commit to the long term obligations of farming gold, stealing sigils, or remain committed to long term 'engagements' i'd loose ability to participate in it.

It would be nice, if you could 'accumulate' a kind of currency by 'attacking' an opposing guild's NPC type to help people encourage RP interaction, but nothing to give one or another an advantage. Perhaps just a way to interact with them more as a show rather than mechanical advantage. Like, orcs could have bragging rights if they've killed 400+ Paws NPC rangers, and VoP could tout 500+ orc kills.

Am I the only one that sees Order/Chaos taking away from the already struggling factions system?

Advantages to O/C seem to be (a) cool shields, and (b) it more closely lines up with Good/Evil (which I think is a misunderstanding).

When factions were introduced and updated on OSI, did people still use O/C? If so, why?

I thought the O/C system was good in the sense of it's simplicity. You were always free at war with (1) other side regardless of what guild they were as long as they were aligned appropriately. The shields were it's selling point - an awesome looking piece of gear.

Factions just expanded upon that by adding (2) other groups and then the added systems of vendors and the sigil stones. I think they kept O/C around for the sole purpose of providing a simple warring system for guilds.

Once they opened up the Order/Chaos shields to everyone - unless you just wanted to fight people, there was no point to it. I loved those shields too - they looked great and I honestly wish they were both available here for anyone regardless of affiliation.

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yep - bigger pool of rivals....

But - why have both? If they make O/C shields just regular shield times in the environment; couldn't the system be simplified further and consolidated to just Factions? Why have both?

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I think this will be great!

Not a misunderstanding; just a drastic oversimplification of why some of the RP'ers are more interested in order vs chaos, when compared to factions. Vlar is a very vocal example of this -- he's 100% convinced that the lore doesn't exist to support factions, that its a war over nothing -- however, feels that the order vs chaos concept, purely because of its black and white nature of good vs evil, black vs white, -- fits into the more virtuous world of Ultima.

I'm with you, this is an oversimplification of what Order and Chaos was about -- but at the same time, I can't fault people who want to role play with the virtues as a black and white concept, even if I feel that drastically undervalues what the concept of the virtues were about in game.

I don't think I understand your argument as to what this actually detracts from factions, or why having the option for factions characters to without penalty be part of order/chaos wars is a negative thing.

That is standard for O/C, to have blue-healers mucking it up. It won't change anything if that blue is an allied factioner. The opponent will still have to flag to attack them if they want them out of the fight. This is what I've always detested about O/C, which is why I never got involved. I don't think it should change as Factions provide the restrictive beneficial acts that I feel are appropriate. If there were some method of flagging that factioner who cross-healed an Order character, to Order for X amount of time, that would be great, but I don't care much either way.


I don't see any real negatives on the whole thing and welcome changes to the guild stone to allow more flexibility and permit faction players in non-faction guilds. Perhaps I missed it but if a guild were to choose a faction but not all members get involved, would all members of the guild who do get involved have to be in the same faction?

Yes, all members have to be in 1 faction within the guild.

ok so if faction rules override guild rules why can't two guild allie if one is in factions and the other isn't
take for example our faction/pvp guild wants to allie with our pvm guild so we don't have accidental deaths

Yeah, the whole intention of alliances, in my original understanding, was so that guild A could be war-free, but aligned with perhaps guild B, a warring/factioning/order guild. This would allow them to interact with guild neutrality (ie: no flagging when attacking each other for sparring or other) and access Alliance Chat (to call for help, from aligned guilds, if under attack or otherwise need halps).

Eliminate all factions and in their place add two: Order and Chaos.

If Chaos takes over a town there could be guillotines in the streets and a general 'evil' atmosphere.

Also -- you need a way to channel people to a fight. I suggest the ranking members of each faction can only declare one town under attack at a time. Once this was done there would be a warning period allowing defenders to rally to the town.

Just like our previous irc discussion -- give some meat to this justification. The faction system is liked, and enjoyed, by many people -- and provides something that Chaos/Order does not -- just because you don't think thats the case doesn't make it truth. They are two unrelated systems that can, and should harmoniously live together.

This isn't about eliminating factions, its about guildstone changes.

And no guards in the town!!! Reds and all could come to town and do evil things!!!!
HHOHOHOHO!!!

This is quickly going from overall guild feature enhancements to O/C v F/S (faction / sigils) only

I want to say that I like the idea of Factions, however, when trying to consider the needs of an RP guild, I hesitate to introduce that competitive element to a style of play that doesn't need a competition goal. RP doesn't need a targeted goal, as it inherently creates its own end goal. Some nights, my end goal might be running on foot through Hythloth, another night it might be to play a game of chess in the lich lord room.

I agree with Corruption that there is lore behind the Faction / Sigils. I think Order / Chaos would just allow folks to enter the 'consensual' pvp arena without feeling the need to be part of the very competitive and heated Faction fights.

I've expressed a little interest in entering the Faction warfare arena, but not for the purpose of gaining towns or winning sigils.

I think allowing Order/Chaos into the fray would allow those who want to engage in the battles, but aren't interested in being restricted to a specific faction the opportunity to do so. They can also provide a beneficial variant to a faction battle if one team has some O/C folks ready to do battle, but who can't steal sigils.

This is how I see it as well. Factions has its own purpose/story/drive -- and for the people who like it, it works. Stripping it out just because you don't like it isn't the right solution, nor is shoehorning in the existing concepts of order and chaos into the factions design. There is, however, absolutely no reason combatants who have claimed fealty to either order or chaos, or factions claiming order or chaos, can't be part of a broader story they create themselves. This enables that, imo, and is a win for everyone as far as PVP is concerned, regardless of the angle you're approaching it from.

yep - pretty much summed up the benefit...

I still want O/C shields for everyone

An issue raised in IRC is the use of the actual guild stone. Just having one for decoration, makes it pretty lame altogether. Is there a way we can require an established proximity to the guild stone, in order to access the menu/gump for it?

For example, within 20 tiles or something, so it could be in the back of a fortress, but you'd still be able to access it if the fortress were locked at present?

Removing the necessity to actually see and interact with the stone, removes a great historic ritual from the game and if we're on that path, let's open up Recall to the Lost Lands because that's equally useless, however nostalgic and preferred.