Plat Imbalance

If the goal is to make plat more available to more of the community, then I think you have to do things simultaneously.

First, reduce the champ plat payout. Second, increase the drop rate on average monsters and mini-bosses.

These two things will make plat more accessible to players not following the triple box tamer layout for champing, specifically dexxers. It will also, inevitably, crash the value of plat further than it already has. I've been around since just about the beginning of this shard (started 1 week after the first anniversary) and I've seen the value of plat plummet over the years. To be honest I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. It means some of the stuff that used to be reserved for the elite of the elite can be had by the masses (ethy mounts, cool house deco, etc.).

I like the idea of plat being worked into the BOD system. It would give an added incentive to participate in the crafting system and give an added bonus to reward those hours and hours and hours spent stitching and hammering away.

I think people also need to realize that every build, every template, every gameplay style comes with advantages and disadvantages. This isn't a problem, it's just how the system works out. I have 4 dexxers and 1 tamer not because dexxers pay more, are stronger, or anything else other than I enjoy the gameplay of a dexxer vs monsters and, occasionally, pvp. It's fun, it's challenging, and it's exciting. But it isn't how you get rich. And I understand that going in, so I enjoy my dexxers and when I need to make some quick cash I'll hop on my tamer and go rampage through the executioners or something for a few hours.

Making every build, every template, every skill set exactly equal in rewards would be boring to the extreme and would kill the natural diversity of economy that makes UO great. At the end of the day there are going to be imbalances in profit, power, etc. between build types and styles of gameplay. That's not a problem, that's just life. So you make a decision about what you're looking for out of the game, what you want your experience to be, and then you shape your characters and gameplay around that.

That's my philosophy anyway. And that's why I have 1 tamer, 4 dexxers, and several characters with completely "useless" skill sets that are completely roleplaying characters. Dorian, for example, has no profitable or useful skills. He is a GM merchant, for Pete's sake.

But he's a lot of fun to play around with.

And isn't that really the point?

the reason plat prices have dropped is due to the lack of incoming players, and all the vets have what they want. if there was a "need" the price would rise, right now Nobody really needs stuff, very rarely do you see WTB plat posts.

I dont think changing the availability of it is going to change a damn thing. You need to have things that people "need" and the People to actually play to change anything.

The market is stagnant, and prices drop. no new items, no new players( in enough force to cause a change)

So you don't think the 100k+ plat we farmed this year impacted on plat prices at all?

Not at all, or at least not much. Noone is buying, except for the trolls that keep posting to screw with each other. Theres not enough newish players getting to the point that they want them. I see people selling plat 20-50 at a time, if that, and alot of it selling at 5k. so No, it has not.

And this much plat has been farmed every year, for more years than ive been here. the Supply is not the problem. its that theres no Use for it. Everyone has always said, Dont just give noobs everything, they have no sense of investment, and dont stay. Why is the goal to make it so cheap, other than you "hurt" certain individuals? Thats the whole reason certain plead for cheap plat. Nevermind, that its bad for the server. But it will hurt a few individuals, so that makes it worth it.

I bought almost all my first plat for my Ethy, at 5-5.5k. thats when Carm and Josh were champing alot, and i think i bought the plat for my 2nd runebook from Carm. I had to farm a shit ton for that stuff. I was never handed a damn thing when i came here. I earned my first 500k farming the occlo dungeon in the young program, so i could buy my first villa.

after i started earning plat, i spend some on deco stuff, but now the only thing i want are runebooks, and i think thats where 90% of the rest of the server is too. that and Ethys...

How much plat Deco is anyone buying? damn little cause it hasnt changed in 5y +

Everyone knows how plat is earned, in larger quantities. Noone is stopping them from doing it. Noone is Forcing them either, cause the market is there, if you want to buy it. You dont want to Champ, farm the gold, buy the plat! isnt that the whole reason for a player economy? With the absolute ease that gold is generated on this server, i dont understand the problem.

It's interesting how the concerns about plat have evolved over the years based on how players were interacting with the system, the availability of plat, and the exchange rate. Having been here for a long, long time, I have quite a bit of history to inform my perspective. Because of that I have several observations/suggestions and each I feel deserve some back story. However I'll put my suggestions at the start and you can read through my thought process if you care.

1. Every end-game type of activity should have its own, themed, reward store, specific currency for that store, and some conversion rate to obtain plat (a la AMIBs and doubloons). The conversion rate to plat should have some consideration for time investment and risk (doubloons should have a lower conversion rate than harrower scales or whatever the champ currency ends up being)
   1. Champs/Harrower
   2. BODs
   3. TMaps/Dungeon Chests
   4. Boss monsters
2. The drop rates for plat in the wild should be increased. While I'm not saying every tenth headless should drop a plat (yes, they do drop plat, I've collected one) there should be a meaningful increase so that the average dungeon delver can reasonably expect to collect a plat or two while grinding out earth eles for an hour.
3. An extremely low chance of a plat drop when resource gathering should be implemented (lowest for cotton/wool, higher for mining, highest for lumber)
4. Blessed runebook deeds should be removed from the plat store. None of the end-game store items should be game changing.
   1. Blessed rune deeds and blessed runebook deeds should be available from NPC scribes, perhaps with a purchase cooldown per account, for 75k and 1.5m respectively. This allows newer players to get out and about reasonably quickly with some level of safety to get out in case of disaster. Offer blessed recall scrolls for 500g each to use in conjunction with the blessed runes.
   2. A scribe should have an extremely low chance of crafting a blessed runebook. This chance should only be possible with a non-combat type of scribe (i.e. for the chance, the scribe has to have magery, inscription, alchemy, spirit speak, and begging)

I know some of these are more practical than others given the limits on Telamon's time to code things, but I would think that removing runebook deeds from the plat store and placing them on the NPC scribes instead in and of itself removes one of the primary pain points of the current state of affairs.

--- TL;DR ends, here there be dragons of a tired fooka's mind... ---

To start off, it's important to establish the original intent of plat and the rewards. The plat system was created to provide some level of endgame content to keep veteran players engaged in the server beyond simply just collecting gold checks on their roof. It was never intended as a vet reward system, but the automated monthly reward was added as a way to not only give people a means to participate in this end game market without having to partake in the specific events that were coded/planned (some of which I believe are still on the to do pile but I digress) but also to keep the server "active" population numbers high for the freeshard ranking boards (thereby also helping to grow the shard). The first pass at the plat reward system, the initial expansions, and some of the planned additions prove this out. Almost none of the items available on the plat reward menu are particularly game changing (outside of runebook bless deeds) and are specifically targeted for an end game player (the blood pentagram won't fit in a small house).

Through the first few years the plat market was white-hot. Plat was selling at 10k a piece and everyone wanted a slice of that pie. A player not participating in any of the in-game plat earning activities could easily turn their 30 welfare plat into 300k gold every month. At the height of UOR's population there were many groups that would run champs, and plenty of public ones to be had as well. Hell even KoS would run champs back in the day, and why not? Everyone was chasing that massive payday of a harrower, and getting the stars to align for that wasn't a regular occurrence. When it did, it almost always resulted in half the server showing up. Throw in a few hits get some plat, 60 max for a triple boxer. We'll call this the happy times, the sweet spot where there was a significant group of endgame players trying to buy things off the plat market, and there wasn't yet a reliable power-gamed plat generation activity. There was little need to consider a balance across the plat activities because a grinder was earning plat numbers in the hundreds, not thousands.

Let's fast-forward to mid-2016, the infamous harrower patch. Now regardless of where you were/are on the patch itself, plat started to take a turn. The growth rate of total plat coins increased. However, this was coupled a higher concentration of the plat. Instead of there being a modest difference in plat accumulation between the pleb and the powergamer, that gap was now massive and increasing. Plat prices remained high for awhile after this, but the overall distribution of plat had changed. Where once an AMIB ironman grinder could be almost on par with a champer in plat per hour (not total income mind you), the change would put them behind at a rate of about 4:1 (being generous to the ironman here). Rather than seeing the server coming together on harrowers, they were reduced to a grind monopolized by a handful of guilds. The guilds (in name, number, and members) may have changed over time, but the dynamic has largely remained the same. You'll occasionally see public champs and harrowers, but they are much fewer and far between than they were in 2014-2016.

Now I use AMIB as the comparison here for a specific reason. As the value of plat declined, the fiscal sense of grinding AMIBs died. Where at the height of a plat coin, you could expect to at least what the scroll was worth in the plat drop alone, everything else was bonus, that quickly dropped off to where you were roughly breaking even with everything you got from the scroll. You were just rolling the dice on getting a rare spawn and so the usage of AMIB scrolls dropped to mostly match the spawn timers. Recognizing this custom content part of the shard going disused, and having help available to do something about it, we saw the revamp of the AMIB system and the introduction of a new, AMIB specific currency and reward store. Now the usage is back up and overall the feedback has been positive. With the reward store being largely targeted to the game style that is used to obtain the AMIBs in the first place, there's no sense of monopolization of the currency gate-keeping game-changing items. It's rewards (mostly) ground out by people who will use the rewards themselves for deco or cosmetics. There's even plans for being able to convert doubloons to plat, thereby allowing access to the "generic" end-game reward store.

Lastly, and ultimately why I think champs and plat have continued to be a problem and unbalanced, is that the previous comparison to the diamond cartels is acutely accurate. The vast majority of the platinum supply is controlled by a minority leading to a virtual monopoly. This has an effect of creating an artificial floor on the value of plat that, despite the supply level being extreme and the demand being fairly low by comparison, keeps the plat value from falling any further. This isn't the only driver of the floor, runebook bless deeds being a part of the store have a significant effect as well, but it is a major consideration. If a part of the game is designed in a way where there is a significant reward for monopolizing its use and locking out all others, that should be looked at and addressed. I don't want to completely ruin the power gamers' path, everyone has their own way of enjoying UO, but there should be some level of diminishing returns if there's a complete lockout of everyone else.

@fooka03 I agree mostly with your ascessment. but as far as Driving Price, ANY trade can be looked at the same way. Bodders control the price of Fort powder and the other rares, Val hammer swings, etc. Why is it that we are only looking at Plat? If the idea is to give everyone Access, Easier, there is more than just plat out there. Plat is litterally only used for House Addons/Deco and Runebooks/Ethys. The market is there, it is available, Ive never seen somone trying to buy plat for a long time, unless your looking for the 2-3k plat deal.

Plat is a market, just like any other commodity in this game. it takes effort and Time to farm it. So it has value.

I just dont see the huge problem here other than the salt amoungst a couple groups.

i dont see the need to completely redesign a well established system, over Runebooks.

Isnt the whole point of the player market to get players to interact with each opther? is that what creates a "community"? If you want to solo play, that option is out there, you can farm and buy the plat as you need it.

Runebooks are not a "need" any more than a Fort is. Are they nice and handy, Sure are! but thats why they are expensive.

What do you mean on "why are we looking at plat" ?

This thread was created to divert attention from the Mounted Elves changes, that received the luxury of explanation that the changes were done to avoid "the flood of scrolls on the shard". So since now Keza cares about server economy, it was asked what he was going to do concerning plat prices, since he is running the server now.

If you think that theres nothing wrong with plat, I think there was nothing wrong with scrolls, but they were still changed...

Keza had support from the other staff with the changes so why continue singling him out on a thread meant to discuss something separate? The other thread still exists if you want to continue that discussion.

Or is it that important that we find someone to channel our sensitive feelings at over a hobby server and completely overlook all the positive Keza has done over the years for one change that was supported by others and some poor choice of phrasing?

I have no association with Keza but I'll appreciate anyone who has volunteered over time and who has only had the best of intentions. For all I know, the change really does suck that bad. But I can't imagine Keza intentially wanting to damage the server. I'm surprised we even have volunteers left after 10 years.

I like @NCCML idea that length of account history could increase welfare plat rate. This does incentivize length of stay and rewards veterans in the long term which was the desire of the system originally. I'm sure you could make a mechanism that tracks account activity as well to reward active play vs idle login time. The system should reward those two differently.

Most of my ideas pertain to PVP vs PVM style of play.

• Bounty Hunter system-- Nobody cares about Gold. Allow plat donations instead and plat rewards as well. We could have "unique" head drops that return a plat bounty. Obviously, we have to solve the problem of one farming their own heads or their buddies head. (let them be publicly shamed and live in disgrace)
  
  
• Best Thievery of the Month Reward

• 1v1 tourneys with decent plat rewards

• Tamer v Tamer tourneys

• Guild wars / capture the flag that pays out plat rewards on a weekly or monthly basis. Could have a once a month guild war tourney.

• TMAPS / amibs should have increased plat drop rates for rewards.

• Multiple Step Tmap/AMIB quest rewards -- like solve 5 lvl 5 Tmaps or 5 AMIBs and earn special payout. Similar to how BOD system works.

• Maybe add more plat on Unique or special mobs.

• Change faction system to reward in plat payouts and maybe scratch silver altogether.

I think competition makes the world go round. PVM is cool and all but PVP is what makes UO what it is for many.

I will ponder this topic over the holidays. I think the current system is pretty good but maybe add some more options for noobs like me who have never gotten over 100 plat. I suppose I could buy a bunch but I don't usually like doing that.

You could maybe do a featured item which gets a 10-25% discount. Changes how often you guys have the time for. Sort of like an ecommerce site. Could be pretty low maintenance and hopefully wouldn't require any code change other than pricing.

You could add a section of items that are way cheaper BUT untradeable. Don't know if that's possible or era accurate.

You are offbased comparing champ plat to bodding or any other "player market". Fort powder takes an INPUT to create. First i need to spend time to get the right BoD (or gold and the right player to sell me it). Then, if dull copper is 15gp per ingot and it takes 340 ingots to make 20 exceptional norse helmets for the 20x deed, it will cost me 5100 gp to make the Fort Powder. You will also get roughly 800 gp for the turn in. So selling at 1k per charge is a profit of 700 gold and took a fair bit of time and flips previously to even get the deed. Now look at val hammers. That is a multi year ordeal to get. Plat takes 30 mins for a champ?

Any market for GOODS has an implied TIME and INPUT investment. People who sell spellbooks have to buy regs and spend time making 64 different spells and a book and then filling them. To make enough books to make it worth it to sell, you are spending HOURS doing it. People who sell ingots spend HOURS mining to have anything of worth to sell. And generally they would have to spend on gargoyle tools first too.

All of those cost currency to obtain materials to process into something to make more money and markets will only bare what they bare but the floor is set by the inputs. Rune books can't possibly be much lower, fort powder couldn't possibly be much lower. I will give you that Val's could be lower as its not based on the "input" but more the time invested but we've seen them fall from 1m a swing to 600k a wep anyway, so they are adjusting in line.

A market for currency takes TIME, sure, but no input or conversion of the currency. You farm gold for an hour, you have an hour worth of gold. If you chose to flip it into BoDs, or Gems to resell, or put it as checks on your roof, you have the end goal pixel already - currency.

As such @fooka03 was correct to compare it to another currency which could be converted to gold or used to buy rewards. But here's were I say its different even still...amibs take TIME to get the scroll before you even get inside and do the instance. Xmas... look at all the complaints on scroll drops. That time has to be added into the "Gold per Hour" analysis. Champing is pick up and play. People who do it have said so - you won't be as efficient as a well oiled machine, but you could take trash dragons to a champ with some friends and make some plat, couldn't you?

I would also disagree with Fookah, that plat was supposed to be "vet rewards". Look at the rewards offered. Ethies and defensive robes were VET rewards on OSI. He even equates welfare plat to vet rewards in this post below:

http://uorforum.com/threads/uor-monthly-vet-rewards-stay-active-earn-platinum.1510/

So Zero, the reason people feel changes are needed are that blessed Rune Books and Ethies which are a important aspect of the UO Renaissance era are locked behind an activity that is not era accurate - triple box, macro driven, champing. Noone's trying to take your ball away from you. Champing needs its own rewards that are worth the time and effort people put in. Easiest fix is honestly to get rid of welfare plat and any other source of plat and just make plat the champ coin so it's no longer confusing or frustrating to those who don't like champing. And as Fookah suggested - move Era Accurate Staples to a gold store.

So the Time and Energy taken to create and do the Macros needed to do this champing and the coordination of the group to do it means nothing? EVERYTHING IN THIS GAME IS EQUAL TO TIME INPUT. Discounting the time and energy taken to do this Efficiently is no differnt than your time inputed to BODDING. its all the same. It is absolutely compareable. There is 0 Risk with your bodding. You can do 100% of it in your house and in a guard zone.

There is Risk involved in champing, reguardless of your opinion of how it happens, You open yourself to other player interaction, because it is Felucca.

GPH should be lower in 0 Risk Situations. Your comparisons to scrolls is bullshit too, Cause if you farm the scrolls you have to risk being out in the the open farming them that can be taken also.

Bodding is nearly 100% safe, can be done 100% in the safety of a guardzone or a house. Mining, etc can all be done with 0 player interaction if you choose to do it that way.


The higher the risk, the better the GPH. and thats the way it should be.

It is different. Bodders have macros, spellbook fillers have macros, fishers and theives too...

I'm talking about the input of in-game resources. It COSTS material inputs to do any crafting. So the end price you pay for a crafted good is not PROFIT. Plat poofs into thin air, like gold, when a monster is killed.

Efficiency is irrelevent to this conversation. Sure, you bought a great dragon and you spent hours training it... that's nullified by the fact that as champers have said I can do it with trash dragons, just not as fast. You CAN NOT fill a bod without the bod and ore necessary.

you have 0 Risk.

Thats the difference.

Can't bless slayers...

When it comes to ACTUAL loss...your dragons are bonded.... you have no risk either.

You have the risk of losing everything youve earned during the champ. So basically your time. PVPers can come in contest your champ, kill you take whatever plat you have earned up to that point, take over your champ, and take whatever skull youve worked twards.

Actual risk. If your farming elementals with Expensive slayers, thats a Risk too i guess. But i dont think ive heard of alot of Miners being hunted for their slayers.

At what point do you risk losing everything youve worked for Filling bods? Other than the poor RNG of whatever reward you get, Your reward is guaranteed when you turn in the bod. Hell, Most of the rewards are even BLESSED when you recieve them. What risk? You can Buy all the Ingots, Fill the bods, and still make Gold, to buy plat with. What risk? other than your time?

I've stolen plenty of BOD's in my time. Everything has some sort of risk. Stealth stealing plat or BOD's all the same. Actually less likely to get wacked on a BOD then with most plat. What risk is there to losing a bunch of plat when rinse and repeat do it again? A BOD can take weeks/months/years to obtain, how long does it take to find a new champ? What real risk does a money printer have to worry about other then the printer being destroyed? At this point a change won't really do anything with, assuming here, hundreds of thousands of plat already in the economy from years of printing. Only thing changing something now would do is hurt smaller/younger guilds/players from getting into the champ system. So imo to do anything at all would require a major overhaul that isn't accessible by the current staff so any discussion on the matter will be just that, talk.

Exactly, theres no point talking about this since we all know it depends on Chris to actually show up and work some code, which is not gonna happen since hes been MIA for longer than 1 year now with sporadic appearances.

im sorry but comparing Thieving of a bod at collection to the risk of PVP is laughable, Yes its risk. but for gods sake, call guards. thats really hard to defend isnt it.

The offset to risk is Time, yes it takes a long time to collect bods, thats because of the low risk.