Proposal: True test of socialism vs darwinism

I propose from 11/20/16 to 1/2/17 that we have a server wide truce on pking, griefing, stealing, shit talking, etc and do the following:


Player contests
Group hunts
24/7 champ spawns (ethy mounts and blessed runebooks for everyone)
and so on and so forth


I've been repeatedly told thieves are the ones who drive away the new players while pks are like fleas and have leader boards, blessed runebooks, safe cys, and etc while the thief system and mechanics are bad and have been nerfed. (Get them up to prodo level and I'll show you what good is)


So my challenge is can everyone do it? Is anyone even willing to try? I bet the thieves will have no trouble, while you guys wont go one day without running your pks around.

Let's put to rest that thieves are the real problem (lies) and I believe this social experiment will prove who really can't play nice with others.


It'll also be nice to have a break from all of the drama for a month or two.


Pony up guys (and gals)

I think you're missing the big picture.

The thief that steals (or fails to lol) a war fork in town isn't going to drive anyone to quit. Hell, the PK stealing a full tamer scroll isn't going to drive anyone to quit. It'll sure make some people angry, sad, rage, etc.. but quit? likely not.

The thief that loots a house dry is the thief that makes people quit. Don't get me wrong, given the chance I would gladly loot a select few players of every pixel they own. In the grand scheme of things, however, the "thief" that house loots is, from what I've seen in IRC, caused many a player to quit.

That's not to say PK's haven't made anyone quit. I would, however, say that it's not just the simple act of PKing that forces people to quit. I never saw nor heard of anyone quitting because PFR, TT, LOL, or anyone else PK'd them in a dungeon. I have heard of people quitting because players who classify themselves as PK's used grief tactics to ruin events or just relentlessly target someone until they quit.

The difference is the player behind the villain.

except for one little tidbit


You don't use the stealing skill (except for very rare occasions when someone has a rune and a key and go afk long enough to not call guards or move) to loot houses. That's usually stealth or gate hopping. It's not a valid reason to nerf the stealing skill.


however when people can't pvm for more than a few minutes of a time without getting rolled on, that costs time, a full pack of goods (the noble pk stuff is just silly) and removes a desire to pvm for a lot of folks, esp considering that we have a high bar on earning things here. Compared to a thief getting one or two items at a time (and the good stuff is rare or it's deliberately made heavy, you can pk someone and get statues and trees and etc off of them, can't steal them, oh no no)


So the whole blaming the stealing skill for players quitting is outright wrong. Yeah they can get annoying in town, but yes it's 100% preventable. The entire stance is silly esp since a lot of players are so pro pk/pvp.

I'm not suggesting to nerf pks, I'm suggesting people reevaluate the stance that thieves are the problem.


And I'm suggesting the truce so we can all get along for a bit and profit from it and have a break from the drama.

Now a fact @Cynic :

It is IMPOSSIBLE on UO:R to loot a house without MASSIVE security mistakes done by the owner. Check the thieving thread, all of them made mistakes - they didn't use their installed table walls, didn't detect, gated directly into the heart of their homes, etc etc.

So, let's say someone get's house looted: Why exactly is that a reason to quit? Check again the big thieving thread, I did 2 fort break-ins, one large marble patio and one villa break lately. I always got only tiny fractions of the peoples real wealth. When someone easily owns 50mil+ (more likely 100mil and above) in value and quits because of 3mil, then something else was wrong before.

Another fact:

It is IMPOSSIBLE to steal anything valuable from other players when they use the available ingame mechanics (some of them rather seem like bugs, e.g. the locked chests).

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I would definitely assume, PKing causes much more people to leave. So many people complain about the abundance of PKs during US prime times. You can barely farm for 5 min until a gank squad tries to roll over you when the bulk of the US players are online.

I think this is what causes much more people to leave. They aren't persistent enough, to search for alternatives or improve their tactics and simply quit.

I have to agree with this, in my main storage house I have main doors locked, table wall with trash door just inside, 2nd table wall with stool door, then it's the lower end items in locked down key locked chests, then the higher end items in 2 separate rooms each with locked doors to gain entry and more locked down key locked chests. If some one were to loot me dry as upsetting as that would be it's all on me and only my fault.

I don't disagree with your statement on house looting. I've been looted myself and it's purely my own fault.

I could also shift the blame to the PVMer to being their fault for making massive mistakes as well. Farming hot spots during prime time? Farming with a full load out? Farming alone? Not having a recall macro and paying enough attention?

I mean, objectively, it's really a two way street.

I can understand that the packs of PKs can be a problem and people just aren't able to farm because of them. I fail to accept that players can't find something else to do that's equally as profitable. I think blaming PKs for people quitting is a scapegoat, I also think the same for blame shifted to thieves. I really don't classify house looters as traditional thieves either, though.

Again, it's not the simple act of PKing or Thieving that causes anyone to quit. It's the grief that's associated with some specific incidents.

I personally feel that it's the lack of risk in being a red pk char that leads to allot of the problems that are caused by pks. While I don't think the system needs a major overhaul there are small things that could be done to curb the bs pks from causing as much drama as they some times do and there are several threads on this debate.

same thing could be said about thieves and looting houses. Just make it so reds cannot enter dungeons and thieves or non friendly characters cannot enter your home. BLAM made a boring server. The reason I play here is for the risk. Some people here would rather play with no risk. It's a delicate balance and I'm glad I am not the one making server choices. Either way it's a tough call on what to nerf.

I'm sorry but these are extremely over reaction statements there is allot of options that could be used with out losing the risk or making these two play styles unplayable

That was kind of my point man. It's hard to find balance on all of these issues. I think it would be best left for Telamon to decide what is best for this server. You have said it yourself there is mountains of forum posts regarding these issues and the same result is players get mad at each other and it turns into a trash talk thread.

Agreed, a big part of the problem it seems is the egos of some of the people involved in the discussions about this topic. There is definitely a middle ground between pvp types and pvm types but we have a hard time getting to it because of the "end of the world" reactions to any changes minor or major.

Back to the original message of this thread, I think it would be great to have a server bonding month of co-op play. people might even make some new friends.

Point of the thread, truce til January. Proof it'll never happen: Thread is already turning into a fight, you guys aren't going to stop pking. You wont even admit pks are worse than thieves, yet thieves get all of the blame.

I was told directly by Chris that Blackeye and myself have caused a bunch of people to quit, but the 20-50k+ player kills on your stat boards I think would prove who's really causing people to quit.


Anyhow, what do you say. Truce til January, yay or nay, in order to enrich us all.

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that entire snooping thing is a no, we have enough nerfs and obstacles already without such a huge one being put in, you can disable snooping messages in razor if you don't like the spam.


no one is saying trammel farming, rather that thieves get blamed for people leaving, while pks get a free pass.



Anyhow enough derailing on the thief/pk stuff.


How about the truce, imagine the immense wealth generated for all players if everyone got along for a month.

Both house looting and PKing have caused people to leave.

PKing because some players who start are used to Trammel rules. Many of them are newer imo, but I dont have stats or anything to back that.

House looting I believe generally impacts more established players since they have more loot, etc. While it might be their own fault and there are guides out there to prevent it, I think this may cause some to leave.

Just my thoughts.

neither of which involve the stealing skill

Well, I'm sure some have left because of stealing. I believe the conversation you posted earlier was more in reference to house looting, not stealing but idk...

what's this thread about?

I'm lost.

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