Regarding these ultra-pro PK discussions

Well it seems we are at an impasse, you don't seem to mind much because it fits your play style. I ASSume your play style through all your comments in the forum. I do not wish to judge, just point out. YOU think there is nothing wrong with the system as is because, as is, it does not effect you. To not be able to play a pk as a main is absurd (by main I mean dieing and being able to play like everyone else, minus some temp stat loss to keep greifing at bay). Hence my ideas to make it possible while keeping punishments that really matter, while making it so PKs are not as deadly. Keep in mind, I never truly main played a pk in my UO career. I just liked pvp and the protecting of blues. Stat loss does not stop ganks, it only adds to it. But ideas similar to mine would help level the playing field, and hopefully make it fun for both parties.

Also, just because this game is "old" is no excuse for "make a tamer and profit". That attitude is just plain lazy and what led to trammel in the first place (easy lootz). As I have been saying over and over again, it should be more than tame ww and rune all hotspots. Just because you can tame a WW, bond it, and than go about your business is insane. Taming was quite hard to gm in OSI, so its a bit different here.

In addition, there are more play styles than tamers and bards. PVM is not the only viable option. It is, however, the easiest and most profitable. Hence the need to scale its difficulty. Sure murder is criminal, but this is based in FANTASY. UO is meant to be a dangerous world, and the players in the shard police themselves. Not EA catering to people that dislike being killed by other players. There are better ways to go about it, without hollowing out the game or making it turn into smurf ville.

I don't think you understand the fun of having pks handicapped with kills. Yet still able to fight without the annoyance of retraining skills. Factions worked well with temp stat loss. I think it boils down to people being killing and getting "butt hurt" so nerf. Without risk, there can be no reward.

This game is open world, and should be kept to open world. Factions is great for pvp, but it should not be an excuse to hinder open world pvp, with the argument of factions IS pvp. By the way, I was talking about no recall for either party during combat, monsters included. If your attacked, you better fight or run. As stated before, recall cheapens the game.

I would love people to add to this, however, if you are mean spirited please do not even bother. We are a community of people that enjoy this game. Lets act like adults and leave the childish behavior at the door.

By the way, posts like the rude one posted a bit earlier, no matter if they are informative or not, are generally ignored by most people due to the amateurish way they try to get their argument across. If it's inflammatory most people ignore the content. If anyone has taken ENC1101 or any college level English they would understand. Please keep it civil and informative.

I'll read it all later, but will address the first part now.
You assume a lot. No, I don't play my red as my main, but he has been in stat. With three accounts (limit just increased), there should be no problem playing reds as your main characters.
Build three of the same, and you can get immediately back in the game, should you die on one.

In my opinion, being a stat red is the bragging rights of an end-game PvPer. You're basically saying "I am badass. I attack who I want, when I want, and I do not fear death, because it is very unlikely". If you are not ready for that level, then perhaps another outlet would suit better. You are opting for a playstyle that is entirely based on causing grief or detriment to others. As such, the risk should be detriment to you, should you fail or make a mistake and get yourself killed. Not just the loss of your reagents, pots and rune.

If putting a crimp on other people's game is NOT what you're after, then seek out the various other forms of mutual combat available.

As has been made evident by the data here, is that statloss has not impeded the most successful PKs on the shard, from playing that way as their main. I don't know who Vagingo's blue are, assuming he has some, but I think one is a Factioner anyway.

I tell you what.

You want a PKcentric environment?
You want "level" playing fields for PKs

I'll concede if you make House Doors Pickable, houses unbannable, no secure containers and only containers themselves to be able to be locked down.
Make loot protectable only if you can take the necessary precautions of trapping your homes to prevent burglury. High value items you want to ensure cannot ever be stolen will be kept in banks just like they would normally.

If we have to fight for our swag, then lets fight to keep it as well.

Edit: they increased the accounts to 3 Blaise?
Bye. I refreshed yesterday, my houses should drop within a couple weeks.

If you will read later, ill add this and you can comment if you wish.

Why should you have to build so many of the same characters? It seems absurd that to play a certain play style that you are forced to have multiples. One and done in my opinion. It is just another way to keep stat loss low enough so you can avoid the system all together. Sure, you can consider "badass" by ganking and getting unsuspected kills and just recall out. Or be forced to fight and actually be considered good.

It seems pretty illogical/silly to me that your argument is make more characters to avoid the system all together. Can you not see how hypocritical that is?

You came in before me, but that whole idea for houses would be amazing. I used to boom box people in front of their homes. I would than take their keys and proceed to take everything in their house. I pulled so many kills on my tinker, yet never had to worry about any "punishment".

I think house break-ins would be cool, but that's a different topic all together.

Personally, I don't think you should make multiple chars, but it was a workable suggestion

You are choosing to play a criminal as your primary character. I don't know how many times I need to stress this, but you are a criminal. Punishment should befit the crimes. If you are attacking/causing detriment to other players as your primary gameplay, what is our recourse? To be like you? We as blues are the 'good' characters ridding the world of monsters. We are rewarded for being good because that is what good deserves. Bad deserves punishment. We aren't playing Grand Theft Auto, we're playing Ultima. Live by the virtues and die by them as well.

Please make some suggestions for fitting punishments that are as much of a pain in the ass as statloss is and perhaps you'll have more people in agreement.

I will never be in favor of Trammel, even for PKs, outside of shard run events.

I have made plenty of suggestions that would make player killing annoying enough, while hindering ganking. Ganking is pretty much the main issue with pks. I will have to disagree that being "blue good" is all about killing and ridding the world of monsters.

The problem is the punishment DOES NOT fit the crime. Permanent stat loss makes for reclusive behavior, and hit and run tactics. You can even kill with tinkers and just sit in a house, no "punishment" at all. Player killers were first punished from going into town, and their only bank was bucc den. After a flood of whining by the masses, they introduced stat loss to curb killing. It had nothing to do with punishing thw killer. It was mainly to keep killing to a minimum and keep the "masses" happy. However, as I stated before, there are better ways to go about this while keeping the players playing, and not macroing back skills or waiting to rez/crying they got ganked.

Again you say they need to be "punished". Guess what, that's what the community is there for. To go out and kill them, and make it hard to get kills. Not put them in stat so they can macro it off while they hop on another toon just to do it over again. It is not like they will stay for a fair fight anyways, there is no incentive to.

Another interesting idea would be to make the account a murderer. If you have one murderer, everyone on the account is red. That way the no guarded towns could effect the player more. Permanent stat loss is just a cheap and boring way to "punish" murderers.

Now with three accounts who needs another player. Jeez. Go siege! One toon per account! That was a great server. Not saying UOR isnt, I am glad its here.

Ok I think ive made plenty of long posts. Ill refrain for awhile and check on it in a few. Back to studying lol.

I get the impression that GONG did not read the first post, nor the links within it, and therefore has missed the entire point of this thread.

My attempt at a reality check was a contribution to the discussion but since it was ineffective and so many people love to push this issue, I'll contribute my thoughts. I've been content to remain quiet about the current system even though I know it leads to a bleak future, but maybe I should air it out a little bit more.

Here are some ideas that would really be in the best interest of Renaissance, that being defined in the original post as keeping the server from becoming a PK paradise.

More perks for being a 'Good' player. Too many people get to a point where all they do is macro mine/tailor/whatev and PK. Give them a real reason to play a different character sometimes. I think that the staff here is clever enough to come up with fantastic ideas along these lines, but I'll try to think some up and share as well.

Increase count/statloss penalties. Yeah, you heard me right. I've said it before and it's still true - history proves that statloss in its current form is not going to deter a whole mess of players from PKing full-time and owning the server.

Offer new players a Young status/safe haven/whetever where they can learn the game and build characters before having to face gank squads.

I completely disagree with what you said Zagyg. First off, I have read the first post. Second, I do not find the links posted worth anything but their opinions. Third, all you have done is post your opinion and told people you wish that they follow your idea of a shard, while posing no argument.

My posts have been to help curb "ultra-pro pks" by helping pks play as a main while using real deterrents other than a useless stat loss. It is so easy to greif as a blue or a faction that it is silly to blame just the reds. Actually, most greifers are generally blue or use faction to explode. Do you remember the faction shields that keep monsters from attacking them? They would use them in champ spawns, wait till the end of the spawn, put their shields up, and kill everyone while the monsters helped. There are so many other greifing ways than a red gank squad. The whole idea behind a greifer is to annoy you. Not being able to kill a greifer is probably one of the most annoying aspects. Giving people a fair shot at reds helps them get over getting "owned".

I believe you misunderstood the point of my posts. In so far that I actually put forth ideas that would bring people together in the game, instead of lazy overhauls to keep playstyles that are disliked from participating in the shard. It completely goes with the topic because it is a counter to your opinion.

Young status is, in my opinion, a bad idea. Newbies need to understand they WILL die. Not be hand held or spoon fed. Honestly, if they cant take that fact than they probably should go elsewhere. The game is probably the most fun when you are new. I never understood why people complain so much about being killed and dieing. Its a game and it happens. It needs to be difficult or its a boring grind fest. We need fights over resources, and the battling of good vs evil. Sure PVM is great, but in the overall scheme of things, its such a small part of this game. The players are what turn this into a great game. If you want easy PVM that wont get interrupted, go to trammel or make a private shard where you can kill all day.

The PKS will not own a shard that decides to police itself. Siege was a great shard that took care of each other. It was not over run with PKs because people took the time to look out for each other. When trammel came out Siege ended up being my main, and it was probably the most fun since I started UO.

Community is this games biggest advantage.

It is true that statloss-
will not deter PKs
will increase gank squads and cheap tactics (less chance of dying)

No sensible person really believes that players gank because of the fear of statloss. That's just a makeshift wannabe justification. The majority do it because it makes things a lot easier and they like to win all the time. That's human nature, and it has nothing to do with PK penalties. People love having the advantage over others in online games, fair or unfair. You name an online game and I'll find an example of someone cheating it or using crappy tactics to win.

And saying that the blue server population can police itself against PK overload is also an empty argument. Can they? Yes. Do they ever? No. I've played on many servers over the past 14 years, never seen it happen yet. Which still leaves a problem that needs fixing, and if the goal is to fix the problem instead of cast blame for its existence then we need to hear some other ideas. This is the Ultima equivalent of a V-chip. Valid point, effective in theory, utter failure in practice.

PKs do make the game more interesting, but only in moderation, as with anything else. When it gets to the point that you're seeing eight different groups of reds recall through a good PvM spot in the space of an hour, there's nothing interesting left to the average player.

More incentives for killing reds would be a great start. I've never seen one that couldn't be exploited by the red player themselves in a multi-account shard (ie: bounties)

At the moment the Justice virtue gains from killing Reds, during the UO:R days it was served to speed up champion spawns, it would be pretty interesting to see a similar mechanic in place here, and since the UO:R champions are widely announced it would be a benefit for all the players, so even if some abusing players did ress kill their own PKs they would see no personal gain.

Its not an empty argument. Clearly Siege did it. No reason to whine because you feel entitled to not be killed. However, the point made was to add temp stat loss while also adding things to make group pking more difficult. Like reduced cross healing and no escape: Removal of recall and scaling gate with kills. That was the argument. If they were handicapped as kill went up, it would lead to better chances for people to stand up to pks.

Lastly, this is not a solo player game. Bring people with you to your spawns if your so worried about getting "ganked". No excuse to hate on a play style because you feel its "unfair".

I suggest you read everything before you take everything out of context and make a nonsenseable argument.

The point isnt to give them a "time out" because you cant fight back. Its to level the playing field to force them to back off.

1 - Nonsenseable isn't a word.

2 - Insults are the last refuge of a weak argument.

That sounds pretty cool...

Actully the justice virtue was used for protection to double your scroll drop.You could speed the drop with another virtue,cant remember which one but you gained by killing champ spawns.

If you wish to attack my grammar and usage of words, whatever. I am not writing a college level paper here, and I would guess you are no professor. Hence all the errors in my posts. Its funny how you wish to pick a word that you clearly know the meaning to and point it out for being "wrong" on the internet. Whatever makes you feel smarter, go ahead. However, it does nothing for this post and wastes everyone time.

Also, I was not insulting. I was pointing out how it sounded to me. If you consider "whining" an insult, I suggest a thicker skin or to simply not read my posts. As for calling it a "weak argument" well that's your opinion. I disagree. I feel I have laid plenty of options on the table. In addition, you have not added any sort of "argument" yourself. It would seem only right, before you judge other people, to be able to back up your claims. It sounds like you are just trying to be rude because someone doesn't agree with you.

I also suggest you stay on topic and try not to derail this with your useless comments. If you have nothing to add, than don't waste bandwidth.

You were insulting, and I paraphrase, by saying 'You are bad at PvP so your opinion doesn't count'.

Basically.


Keep it on topic. Do your best not to attack the 'skill' or lack thereof of any other player and perhaps your conversation will be taken more seriously.


"The point isnt to give them a "time out" because you cant fight back."

The opinion (subjective) is that murderers are infringing on the play of law abiding players. Hence, the need for some recourse as befits the crime. I really don't understand how people choose to pretend like being a murderer is not a crime in the game. Just because murdering a bunch of people was the Zodiac Killer's 'play style', doesn't mean he shouldn't be punished (if he were ever caught).

.

Sorry I havent read the entire thread, but here is my opinion:

I do actually believe by improving PvM and therefore giving people more reason to go out, you will at the same time increase the PvP.
The thing that is missing at this point are victims, not pks. The PKs are there already, and most of them do no whine (except about the lack of victims maybe).

What does that tell me? The PK system is just fine. People just need more reason to go out.

I am really looking forward to Champ spawns, if they keep the amount of spawns limited, I can foresee big guild fights over it. Sounds fun to me.