So Filling Bulk Order Deeds is Tedious - Lets talk changes.

Lud I have contually argued this point w Server staff.

(1) What makes UO fun?? It's a world where we can do whatever we want to whatever capacity we so choose. Our time is rewarded with pixels.

Server Staff keeps demanding that WE justify "Why we need x many pixels." No. That is backwards. Server staff should have to defend why they think it's justifiable to constantly micro manage people's gameplay styles. That's what this is. Micromanaging fun. This is a place where if we want to mine one bazillion ingots, then that's our perogative.

(2) Why is the use of razor constantly under attack? This is advertised as an era accurate razor allowed shard. In uor era we had uo assist and we were allowed to write macros and use them. Uor we have razor. Why are people who take the time and bother to write elaborate/ clever macros and then choose to spend their time monitoring their macros constantly under attack? Again server staff HAS NOT provided any good defense of these arbitrary and unwarranted and damaging changes.

(3) I'm sick and tired of server staff using "the economy" as the defense for everything.

The economy is not at all under strain. Are ingots being bought and sold @ less than 8gp each ever? No.

Can players new and old go find a ready market for ingots? No.

Was the post troll patch rate of mining too fast? No.

Is this 1.6 second delay too slow? Absolutely.

Is using razor to fill bods AT ALL a bad thing? No! The server admins have no rationale or reasoning to defend why filling bods like this is bad. Only some silly "the economy" blanket argument that is used to justify all these arbitrary changes.

(4) I'm sick and tired of people who don't mine complaining about miners. Let me tell all of you who are out there saying "oo Mutombo and bart mined all these ingots and it's clearly broken." Y'all are simply showing your ignorance. If you think 2 months of mining with multiple hours a day spent at keys is fun / super profitable, then by all means go for it. Oh and for those who think smith bods are profitable. Go for it.

(5) I'm sick and tired of all these supposed complaints from new players being used as an arguments to nerf everything. Let's FACE REALITY guys, UO is an ancient game. Most ppl who play, played back in the day. Everyone who played back in the day used UOassist bc let's face it, double click/point click game play is boring, unrewarding, and an utter waste of time.

ARE we really steering a shard to pick up players who don't use razor?? Like let's be real. People who do not use razor are not going to play this game longer than 4 months, because UO without razor is an awful game.

Razor makes this old game playable and it's era accurate. Remember guys we ALL had and paid 10$ back in day for UOassist bc this game is UNPLAYABLE wo these 3rd party programs.

I feel like we are telling people to stop driving their cars around town and instead use ox carts!!!

(6) Like Dalavar has said. Making some sort of stupid bod trade system is NOT ERA ACCURATE AT ALL and IS A HUGE F U to all the people who have spent 100s of hours of their lives playing the BOD game. That is another terrible idea.

Let's keep things era accurate. This is UOR, not UOC (UOchris) or UOn (UOnewbie)

(7) Lastly. I'm sick of people acting like miners are breaking the economy. Nothing creates more artificial wealth than all these silly holiday events with their rares. I keep saying this. If you wanna win UOR don't mine, just go to every holiday event and you will be swimming in riches. I don't attend any events. I like to play UO at the times in my day when I my schedule permits. I do NOT plan my life around this game. So I have worked hard in UOR to still be wealthy wo partaking in all these holiday events. I still do not see why my methods for wealth generation (which are severely less profitable then farming and holiday events) are always under attack. Server staff has never provided defense for why inflation caused by holiday events is not deleterious to the economy but having people quietly mine ingots and play the bod game mostly minding (mining hehe) their own business, and not flooding the market place is some sorta economic crisis???? No answer. The true economic crisis is that the ingot markets are so dry that the market place has entirely frozen up!! Any REAL econ major would look at this and say "their is not an over supply problem here, there is clearly need for less restrictive policy making in order to stimulate the ingot market place." Alass... I'm clearly hoping for a far too educated and intelligent analysis of the situation then will ever happen amongst the UOR online gaming community.

Bottom line is this

Let people play the game. Stop micromanaging. Stop mutilating UOR with all these changes that every time take us farther and farther from an era accurate server.

Thank you!!! If I could give u 10,000 liked I would. Thank you

You're marginalizing me by misreading and misconstruing my words. Stop doing it.

I love this shard, and I've probably done more than 95% of the player base to make this place grow, so you can stick your goodbyes right up your ass -- cuz thats about what its worth.

If you can't accept that people are allowed differing opinions, I don't know what else to tell you. The fact that you keep driving this down to some succinct summary of what you think the real issues is, tells me you're not even trying to understand what people are complaining about. Furthermore, this shard has always been about being welcoming, not showing people the door -- so take that attitude and cram it buddy.

Just glancing at this link for dull copper ore... http://www.uorenaissance.com/itemgraph/19BA/DullCopperOre/single

There really is a huge difference in the dull copper out there since bart and mutombo showed back up and started recall mining on multiple accounts all the time. I saw them sometimes and I really was a little concerned that it might be out of control. And sure they may not be selling their ingots (yet, but they could, the potential is clearly there.) But these ingots will profit them in other areas - ie smith bod rewards. High end runic hammers entering the community, perhaps at a faster rate than the system really intended.

I think it's fair to say something should be re-evaluated here. But it's not as simple as too many ingots or too much afk gathering. I think we should be careful how much the changes are getting away from what we expect mining to look like. In the same way we should be careful at how much, as a community, our most effective/used mining method gets away from what mining 'should' feel like as well.

I don't think mining should look like beating on elementals. If I was freshly starting here like I did back in ~98 and walked down to the minoc mines to dig up ingots to sell to smiths and saw guys beating on elementals with special tools instead of mining I'd be quite a bit disappointed. Likewise if what I saw was bots coming and going all over the place like bart and mutombo's miners I'd be pretty put off as well.


But Mutombo won't be able to realistically achieve his BOD goals mining by hand on a single account like we might expect mining to look like.

I'm afraid that this patch and the last one (the mountain troll patch) are just turning into a game of cat and mouse with people's mining habits. I got into some recall mining after the last patch because I was curious and felt like I was able to be effective and evade trolls. Bart and mutombo are still mining today (i killed abe simpson in minax's base a few minutes ago.) I think they will just adjust some recall locations and keep on, a minor speed bump for them. But new people getting into mining might be confused by things they were not expecting from mining in ultima online.

So my suggestion is to find some way to bring Mutombo's need for ingots in line with something that can be satisfied by mining the old fashioned way. Somehow reduce the ingots produced while recalling and/or increase the amount produced while not recalling. Before age of shadows, resources produced in felucca were doubled to encourage players to risk and invest more in the gathering. Perhaps at the keys miners could produce more ore. Then perhaps the smith reward bar could also be brought down closer to his grasp to compensate in some way.

Recall mining has and will always be a part of UO.

There is no reason why it should be nerfed. I understand some people are concerned that we are over here swimming in riches and we are playing the game in a way it "shouldn't" be played. BUT EVERYONE WHO USES "SHOULDNT" as their argument are forcing their views and play style onto other people AND they are forgetting what makes UO fun. We all get to play our own game in whatever way we so choose.

Mes why is it wrong that after 400-500 game hours of mining that we have a lot of ingots?

Why is recall mining bad?? IF MINING ORE WAS SO MUCH FUN THEN WHY IN EVERY SHARD ANYWHERE EVER DO PEOPLE RECALL MINE??? It's because THATS how the game is played. NO ONE WANTS TO DOUBLE CLICK POINT CLICK. It's simply unplayable. If you want to give a BONUS to people who double click point.... By all means go for it.... But let's not RESTRICT or tax recalling.... Let's ADD to the ingot supply With a BONUS let's not restrict with a tax!! Remember everyone.... THERE IS NOT AN OVER SUPPLY OF INGOTS. THERE IS NO INGOT MARKET PLACE. So further restriction is NOT THE ANSWER

I have to agree it seems the crusade against recall mining isn't working, the recall miners will find a way to keep going and all these rules and changes to mining are just going to confuse new players. I say with these new caves that restrict recall, up the ore yield there. This way by hand miners win as they can't just recall into the mines and mine them out they actually will have to walk in.

To answer why people need so many ingots bod flipping consumes ingots at a horrifying rate. Especially if you have to flip an armor bod that takes more ingots per craft.

Also I really hate the fact razor can't see sys message anymore, heck the linked lumberjack macro on the compendium uses a sys message! I really would advocate this one gets changed back.

I think Chris has had a vision for what a miner should look like for some time in a classic sense. He has always been up front about this. For anyone that has script mined (I did it with EUO on Baja long ago) the thought of mining by hand is agonizing. But I don't believe that it's agonizing for you because you hate the thought of clicking a shovel. I think it's agonizing to you because your goal is smith BODs and you can't complete them at that rate.

I think if you could log on in the evening and mine ingots for an hour on one account, at the keys, and actually get closer to your smith BOD goals you'd be fine with the classic vision of mining.

There really was a time when the UO economy worked without script automation. I remember it. It would be hard to get back to that after what we know now and what tools we have available, but I think Chris would like to get as close as he can.

Recall mining happened on the OSI servers, yes. But you got banned for it. I lost my main account to it permanently. The admins back then did not want the efforts of traditional miners to be eclipsed by the effectiveness of script mining. It's the same here. But I really do feel your pain and I think it would be reasonable for your smith BOD goals to be brought within reach of a traditional miner.

Wouldn't it be better if you didn't have to have a team of people watching scripts mine at all hours of the day to achieve your goals? I don't think Chris's goal is to stop you from achieving. I think he wants to find a way to encourage you to just play the game. But again, I think an important part of that is making your goals not require months of script mining by multiple people. Otherwise you will never stop looking for ways around the traditional miner.

Despite the liberal use of capital letters, Mutumbo has a really good point on how to solve this. Provide further benefits to old-school miners. Double the ore the new shovel elementals give out. Give double ore capacity in veins to those without a recently traveled flag. Doubling pack horse capacity this last patch was a really good step forward on this already.

People that don't recall mine then feel like they can compete.
People that recall mine don't get their game taken away.

Everyone leaves happy. We sing kumbaya and hold hands as we walk off into the sunset.

LoL I laughed IRL at your comment.

Sorry. I sometimes get crazy and too passionate and this translates to random CAPITAL LETTERS

Just put a grain of rice under both of your shift keys and flip your caps-lock key (like a bod ...)

While we're both on the same path, you're on a crusade and I'm on a mission ...

Oh and I think this would be really unpopular...but maybe you could just take out bod flipping. You could increase the chance for higher end bods at the same time, potentially.

Unfortunately another idea that has already been shot down right out of the gate without reason by "staff" ergo Telamon.

So to get this thread back on track can no one think of any way to fix mining and BODs within the constraint of not adjusting ore or BODs like he has committed to above? Butchering razor messages that we have all been using here since day one must be the best way then huh?

Fuck Razor. Double/Single-Click for the motherfucking win. I'm super not giving a fuck how hard the game becomes because people sitting back and watching the numbers rise is getting nerfed hard. Maybe I'm 'marginalizing' (which seems to be getting overused here as much as I overuse 'griefing') but quite frankly, Razor is the greatest detriment to any Ultima Online community and gameplay experience, that I have ever seen.

I never once in my life prior to UOR used a second program to mine. I used to walk around with the pickaxes I needed and hope like hell I made it back to safety with my score of ore/ingots. This is UO, not fucking clicking 'start' and watching the screen while you spank the monkey. I built a GM miner/smith on OSI and on UOSA with my badass left finger. It clicks like a boss and my 'last object/last target hotkey was like magic to deploy.

This game/shard has turned into a bunch of lazy greedy people bitching and moaning about everything changed that actually encourages them to get out and DO SOMETHING. Yes, I see lots of room for improvement in things like BoDs (such as higher chance of better bods for turning in better bods) among other potential ideas out there. Quite frankly, I don't even agree with multi-account, at all. I would gladly pick my five favorite characters and let the rest get fucked in exchange for changes that encourage cooperation and challenge.

Fuck easy gameplay. I have xbox for that.

Sorry if I've offended any automated gamers out there but this has always been my opinion and the only reason I macro mine or otherwise is to avoid feeling like a chump because everyone's cooking at 10x the rate that I can by hand. I'll be happy to take a walk with Zorn and throw a pick at the ground again, when I'm in need of ingots. I'll be even happier to see someone else in the mines that may or may not come and kill me.

Overall I think that crafting failure rate, which makes BoDs more painful, is one of the biggest reasons people are so adamant about macro mining or whatthefuckever. Hey, maybe I've been afk too long and I'm missing the point but my point is, less razor, more gameplay.

I still love you all, even if I haven't even seen you in game in a year because everything you do is in your secure CY and practically, if not fully, automated.

I was wondering when the real mining troll would pop his head in

@"Fuck easy gameplay. I have xbox for that."

LOL

I apologize Miller-, I should have paid attention to that from the start. Carry on, I concede!

I lol'ed at the idea of using just 100k ingots a month

Part of the problem is that there just isn't enough ingots, no matter how much mining is going on, to fill and flip the BODs on the shard. Back before all of the mining changes, I was buying ALL of Red Rover's ingots the moment he put them on his vendor, plus significant portions of a few other players.

If you want to reduce the number of ingots being used for this purpose, I guess there are a couple of ways to do it. Keeping in mind that you're really trying to reduce the number of hours spent mining to fuel BOD flipping. One is to increase the ingot yield of mining so it gives double the ingots. This would also reduce the cost of GMing blacksmithing, which is bad IMO. A viable alternative might be to increase colored ingot yield, since colored ingots are almost never used for smith training. The other is lowering the requested count of BODs. Right now they're 10's, 15's, and 20's. Weighted average is about 16.25 items per BOD. You could lower this if the BODs instead asked for 5, 10, and 15 (weighted average of 11.25). It would reduce some of the tediousness of flipping, and about 30% of the ingot requirements.

If you want to further reduce some of the tediousness of BOD flipping, the "Exceptional-only" toggle on crafting sounds like an absolute no-brainer for reasons well beyond this particular issue. And additionally, targeting items in a container would help in filling the very heavy items (i.e. ringmail tunic) in a more timely manner.

To Faber's point about bone and studded... I think there needs to be some "duds" in this system for balance purposes (I've argued this for a long time), but reducing the degree to which the duds are duds might help. CUB would help with this I think.

So in summary, to address the purpose of the thread, I'd say in order of "no-brainer" to "just good, IMO":

1) Add the "Exceptional-only" toggle.

2) Reduce the item quantity requested by BODs.

3) Create some kind of turn-in program for the economically unfillable BODs (my suggestion would be fractions of platinum)

4) Increase the portion of colored ingots given by colored veins.

5) Increase yield for manual mining (packhorse buff was a start for this)

6) Allow BODs to pull in multiple items at once, from a container (either backpack, or another container)

All of these things would result in less ingots and time spent filling BODs and hopefully more time spent "actively" mining, without any impact I can foresee on macro-mining.

I totally saw Mutombo in game.....last fucking year.

No. This would make the BOD game unfathomably more difficult. There is .5 % chance of pulling a Val bod and only a 45% chance that said bod will be armor. This doesnt take into account the different numbers it will yield + MAYBE JUST MAYBE it is one of the cherished few you will need vs a worthless piece of female plate or some type of helmet...

We have to be able to turn over bods to play this game. We (bod fillers) are already fighting a game of diminishing returns when it comes to filling and trading in bods with an ever increasingly difficult task of gathering ingots looming above our heads.

Wrong. The game played just fine before BoDs ever existed. Wanna know what was great for crafting before BoDs? Shit people needed. I made serious gold on prior shards with my smith, running an armor vendor or get this shit....filling bulk orders for what was it again? Oh right....PEOPLE.

Dex hits on metal armor screw the metal armor market, along with the failure rates.

Failure rates on bone armor totally screw any market potential for bone armor (yes, there could be one, especially because it can carry different hues).

The fact that we even have a valorite runic hammer on the shard is a testament to how overboard the BoD scene is. This thing shouldn't have been seen for a couple more years in my opinion.

BoD Flipping was implemented to assuage the tears from the nerf on multi-crafter accounts (DV's 9 tailors ring a bell anyone?).
These things should take a long time and a big community effort to obtain. But oh, orange mask dye is barely selling and really who gives a crap about sub-gold runic hammers. There are too many BoDs and it is far too easy to flip and get more.

I think removing the ability to flip and increasing the percentages of acquisition would be a healthier alternative. A CUB system may get us out of the huge rut we're in with weapons and items that are STILL filling player hoards from before the drop-rate change. It's going to be a great challenge to find a happy medium but I won't ever agree that automation is th answer.

Also, I'm not sure about diminishing returns on BoDs. When I flip, I get gold and items that are worth gold and I get more BoDs, some of which can be worth 10s, if not 100s of thousands of gold.

But hey, let's worry more about piles of gold and platinum on our rooftops more than fun in the field and community growth.


Also, for what it's worth, the most complicated macros I ever used for BoD filling were 'smith last, target by type' which I would restart with every new bod I started to fill. That and my drag bod by type to vendor and say order status. Like really.....play the fucking game already. It's not going to kill you.

.