So Filling Bulk Order Deeds is Tedious - Lets talk changes.

You can take my opinions with a grain, a pinch or a shitload of salt since I haven't played in a while and am basically a nobody here, but here goes anyway because I'm an opinionated asshole:

(1) I think, as others have stated, that problems were being seen where none existed. For example:

Drastic boost? How is this different from targetting manually in several directions while standing in the same spot? IF the problem is that staff couldn't tell if a player was using Razor or EUO for this, then take away the filler and just say that's the reason.

Another example:

Honestly, let's cut the shit here, this means "the problem is: people are recall mining in town, and we don't want it. Take your shit out of town." How many people actually recall mined, and how much does this affect people, and who does it affect? New players? Tela, do you have a statistic of how many players start here and consistently play after 2, 3 or 6 months? How many of those quit because their in-town ore mines were depleted? People get bored. It happens. Add to that the fact that I am an oldschool UO player aching for that ultimate sandbox experience that UO provided in 1999-2000 only to log in and find I'm restricted by an insufferable amount of rules I have absolutely no idea of why they are here because I have 1-2 hours to kill after work and can't (am not willing to) be bothered to read the forums to find out they are put in place because two numbnuts decided to hoard ingots.

This is not a problem!! This is additional content! You're taking away things to put in others.

(2) You are effectively social engineering the game. You are changing playstyles. We get that you don't want automated playstyles, but (a) they have, and will, always be a part of UO, and (2) you're not only hurting automation. If I want a pure crafter, how am I to go get colored ore fighting ore golems? I have to change my template, bring people in to share my spoils with, etc. You are effectively changing MY playstyle. How many of these cases are there vs. the number of recall miners (IP's vs. IP's, not accounts)?

(3) Pareto's Law is not even close on this one. As of this moment there are 534 players online. Assuming 3 players per IP (thank you welfare plat!), that's 178 IP's. There are what? 20 people with opinions in this matter? What about the other 90% that is out there playing the game? Do they read the forums? Do they have an opinion? How does this impact the new player who wants to level a blacksmith but has no idea of the super-custom mining system in place here? Do you think HE will stick around?

(4) Fisher of Men: I'm your jackass. I trained blacksmithing with colored ingots. Have you asked newbies if they do too? I bet more than one does because blacksmithing is a pain in the ass and I just want to get it done and over with!

(5) We are making a socialist game out of the ultimate capitalist game ever created. Starting in UO is not supposed to be easy. New players have to either (a) know and accept that they are starting WAAAAAAY behind the curve, and excel at something to catch up (like a certain IDOC hunter I knew in another shard), (b) accept the reality and know they will always be behind the curve because they started later, or (c) GTFO.

(6) Not everything is bitching, there has to be some positives too:
a) Agree with the idea of harsher AFK penalties
b) I'm all for additional content without taking out parts of UO
c) BoD trade in, love it.
d) Exceptional Only crafting...PLEASE!

(7) Suggestions: Only one - don't try to fix what is not broken. UO is the greatest fucking game EVER! For a reason.

I went mining for the first time a few days ago to check out the changes, based off my experience I have to say I definitely agree with Pirul's post.

Nothing is stopping you from going out and mining, just how the game was designed. Things are now making it more difficult to use another program to do it for you.

Automated gaming was absolutely NOT 'always' part of UO. It's something that lazy cheaters, who knew how to program, developed over time, after seeing that they could get advantage over others in game by doing so. Yes there were hot keys in UO and slim levels of ease to the grind, but never was full automation even remotely part of the design.

Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start......not much different than clicking 'Start' on that ingot pump macro.


Clicking 'start' is not a play style, it's an anti-play style.

I may have been gone for a while, but I have not forgotten how you argue Blaise.

So now you want to tell me that in 1999-2001, the prime UOR years, UOA and EZMacros were not used by a fair number of people? Really? The fact YOU didn't use them does not mean countless others didn't.

Hell, I'll tell you what, you win this argument. Automation has never existed in UO. I concede.

I will however tell you, if not for Razor, I would not have picked up UO again some 5 or so years ago because I would not have had the time to otherwise raise my skills and I would not have lasted. Yes, I am talking in the first person now, but am sure a lot of people would suscribe to my sentiment.

In other words, and to "Blaise" (oversimpify) the argument, take out Razor or live with automation.

BTW, I find it lovely that my mining macro was modeled after yours. Thanks for the tips!

I never said anything of the sort. Just that it wasn't 'always' that way, as you claimed. I'm not even trying to pretend that I'm not highly efficient and practically dependent on Razor at this point either.
You only seem to see things in superlative (all or none) terms, so I'm not sure how you can even carry on this conversation. However, I understand how enjoyable it is to build an advanced macro, such as the one you made, modeled after my own. My own was only a hack and modification of yet something else I copied and I did so for a friend. I never had a mind to macro mine, but I did for the sake of a favor and it was beautiful to behold in action.

It was not playing UO anymore. It was watching resources pump into a box while I played UO on another screen, which is bullshit. I barely ran it close to the scale of literally any recall miner on the shard. Hell, I only had built it to suit two miners at a time, max. Regardless, I think it has no place here at all. I don't think administration feels the same way but it would seem they're shooting for balance.

How many walking miners have you met on UOR since you started?
How many did you meet, or have, on your previous shard?

I actually have met many, on both shards. Hell, many of my guildmates actually started by mining. Haven't talked to them in a while, so I don't know what they think of all this, but when I leveled my 2 blacksmiths up, if I needed to buy ingots, I bought from them. And am not following where this is going.

Ok, it wasn't "always", but ever since UOA has existed, automation has been part of the game.

I understand admin is going for "balance". But what does that even mean? But whatever it means, it is a slippery slide into communism. One wrong step...

.

Let's pretend for a moment that we all agree that recall mining should be killed.
What methods would you employ to stop it?

(A) Mining trolls
(B) AFK GUMPs, with penalties for failure
(C) Disable harvest system messages in Razor
(D) Players cannot harvest for X amount of time after recalling
(E) Disable the ability to recall into caves
(F) Create ingot production benefits for non-recall-miners



In my opinion:

(A) adds a dimension of fun for recall miners, but as the last months have shown, it's quite ineffective at stopping recall mining.
(B) stops automated recall mining, but does not stop attended recall mining.
(C) hinders recall mining slightly, but does not stop it. For loops simply replace the 'out of metal' messages in the macros. This also affects non-recall-miners.
(D) can cripple recall mining with a long enough delay. The delay is also adjustable.
(E) has very little impact on recall miners as they can still mine on mountains.
(F) does not stop recall mining at all, it just allows non-recall-miners to feel like they can compete.




Option F is the win-win.
Option B combined with Option D is the best solution to stop recall mining.
The rest is ineffective chaff.

I'd be pro BDF.

You're taking away something from a very few (recall miners) to give back to the masses. Call it what you want, but it is what it is.

Oh and Blaise, I find it amusing you call my point of view superlative (sic), when you throw out these couple of gems:

So because I know how to use Razor I'm a cheater? Then ban razor and let's get it done and over with already.

Regardless, we know that's not gonna happen, so were are we left? Tinkering the core mechanics of the game to prevent two, four or six numbnuts from hoarding ingots. Are we sure we are taking the right aproach here?

And don't misunderstand me, I am not trying to defend recall mining, I am trying to defend my ability to go in the game and do what I want when I want, which is what UO is ultimately about. If I need to do what Admin wants me to do (trolls/golems) so I can get what I want (ingots), don't tell me that is how the game was designed. So I'm actually quite surprised that you, Blaise, who

, are not on the same boat as me.

You say:

Well, actually there is. There are trolls, delay restrictions, recall restrictions and God knows what else, because I have not mined here after all the patches, but for fucks sake don't get on your fucking high horse and tell me mining here is exactly "how the game was designed".

.

When you make statements like 'always' (that is a superlative, look it up), your statements seem overreaching and fairly absurd. You're not cheating now because Razor is an accepted form of assistance based on the rules of this server. Back in the day, OSI was banning people until they approved third party software (because they couldn't stop it). So how it 'always' was, is not accurate to your assumptions or present methods of playing. You can go out and do what you want in UO, you just can't have Razor do all of it for you when it comes to mining.
The game was not designed to be automated so people can sit back and watch numbers rise. If you think that is they case, then we will never be on the same page.

As for going out and mining, there have always been monsters near mines, PKs who kill miners and item use delays/restrictions. Stop making problems where they don't exist, or literally have since launch back in 97 (ie: monster spawn).

Saying that I appreciate how something was designed and not how people wrote software to cheat it, is not even remotely superlative. Please learn your words before you attempt to debate them.

Spot on Basoosh and Pirul. Broad changes should have more purpose than to frustrate people into playing a certain way.

If the powers that be is convinced that recall mining is going to destroy the economy and the server they should just eliminate it instead of saying "no, its cool, go ahead and continue doing it, we're just gonna make you re-adapt all your macros and make the experience miserable for you".

One ineffective change after another that simply frustrates people that are playing by the rules, but not necessarily the way someone wants them to is the point that will likely never be appreciated here. Which is ironic since as I understand it Telamon was quite the power Razor user in his previous life in UO - you'd think there would be more appreciation for the weird things people set out to accomplish in this game, without being asked "Why are you doing that?" "Why do you need that?" and then justifying the question with an insinuation that they are going to destroy the server.

At the end of the day I still chuckle that essentially 2 people were able to drive such a knee jerk reaction to something that has been in place since day one here and the fact that it was put up for discussion after all the changes and decisions were made. Perhaps I am a the black sheep that isn't motivated by the boss saying "Prove my way isn't the best way" after a decision is made type of collaboration/discussion.

Telamon is a power user of Razor and as such knows exactly the levels of detriment caused by it. He publicly posted a macro that would enable anyone capable of understanding it, to make 10m gold a month, without even playing. While the comparable factors may be slightly different, the impact is what he's trying to avoid here. People are generating a LOT of resources/wealth on full auto. Now they're not, and they face challenge just like other methods of money making in the game.
Reformed criminals make the best security consultants.

He basically put a stop-gap in place until a reasonable alternative can be found and applied. At least he's asking, even after the fact, instead of just closing the door and laughing.

The folks most up in arms about the change are millionaires. Why not post up on forums and spend some actual gold on ingots (not this chump change rate based on the fact that everyone with ingots recall mined to get them), thus helping the players because there are new folks out there trying to make a living the way people have since 97'. They go out and gather resources to train with or flip for gold to train with. The fact that people came here new and basically just setup recall miners and watched Netflix 8-12 hours a day, is sad.

I appreciate the grammar lesson, as you know that english is my second language and I actually have to study to comunicate with you, and your big words. If my statements seem overreaching and fairly absurd, it is only because the same kind of overreaching blanket is being put on a bed that was already made.

I will grant you that it might have not been "always", but let's look at when UOA was introduced? end of 1997? 1998? So it didn't exist for TWO years, and it has existed for 17 after that. So in the 19 year history of UO, roughly 10% of it was done without any approved 3rd party assistance. Yes you're right, it was not always. I'm sorry, just 90% of the time (and 100% during the UO:R era this shard is loosely based off). Don't get me wrong, I know Richard Garriot did not design it to be automated. But neither did he design it to include necromancing samurais, and yet they are part of it.

And no, monsters and PKs did not venture into Delucia to kill and delay my miner in OSI, UOSA or here. Nor do I recall an abundance of monsters, or any at all, on or around Mt. Kendall's mines, were I actually GMed 2 miners. One in OSI and one in UOSA. Luck? Maybe.

If you never got killed on Mt Kendall, I doubt you really ever mined there on UOSA (without Recall). I guess I never really spent my time hugging guard zones when I mined manually on OSI, UOSA or here. Monsters are in the mountains and anywhere outside of GZ, you're likely to get PKed on occasion. Granted, I never mined in The Lost Lands because I hate that place.

Yes, I understand assistance programs have been around the majority of the time the game has been around. That is absolutely not a justification to allow fully automated resources gathering, in my opinion. It's not my call though and I had literally nothing at all to do with the decision or idea process behind these changes. I just support any change that reduces benefits gained from extensive macro creation and operation. I'm a rare breed and it shows. I don't think less of anyone for thinking that full-auto UO is the best, I just don't care for it or agree, at all.

That said, you can absolutely still walk around Delucia and mine just like you did on OSI and UOSA. Nothing is preventing you from doing that.

I'm not saying I didn't die in or around Mt. Kendall, just never to monsters. Much less monsters specifically going after/spawned by miners.

Well, except I didn't walk. I recalled to the spots I wanted to mine because they had the specific ore I was looking for. Can I still do that here like I did in OSI, UOSA and here pre-patch? Or is Admin making me walk to my spots changing my playstyle?

Monsters go after players, they don't care about your skills.
I didn't die to monsters on Mt Kendall either, but you should understand the point.

I believe the intention to eventually remove the Recall restriction to caves was already stated by Chris, but it would seem that's not enough to curb the upset about it. There are literally hundreds of other locations you can Recall to and mine, just not 4 grid intersections in caves.

I imagine in time that restriction will be lifted when some other changes can help balance that out a bit more. If you don't get what balance is, that is keeping the guy who plays traditionally, not light years behind those who run three accounts at once on full-auto, for an obviously vast advantage.

I am just trying to keep this in perspective.

The vibe I'm getting is that these changes are a response to 2 (two) motherfuckers smelting 1 (one) million ingots in a single seating. That's a lot of ingots. And that's too few motherfuckers.

UOR has what? Give or take 200 individual IP's that log here per day. 2 (two) of them, or 1% (one percent) of the population, are making you change the whole mechanics for mining. How many of the other 198 IP's check the forums? How many even care that 2 fartcocks smelted one million ingots? How many are you affecting because of the changes? Is that what you consider fair?

When I started in UOSA after years of not playing UO, I didn't care that Rammar had all the rares. I didn't care that a fellow called Telamon got all the loot from IDOC's and the best housing spots. I didn't care that Sandro dominated PvP. I cared about playing the game how I remembered. How many of the 198 other IP's care that Bart and Mutombo shit ingots?

Regardless of how much trash talk you generate about them, they are not the sole reason for these patches, despite how much it boosts their egos. While they may be part of the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back, I'm fairly certain they're not alone.

There's no need to call them names because they were hitting maximum mining efficiency within the previous mechanics and rules, assuming of course that they were ONLY using Razor.

When I started UOSA, I didn't even use Razor for a month. I don't care who's better at it and I never have. I know that I mined manually to GM and well beyond that. When I see new players only selling boards and rarely selling ingots, that looks like a problem to me. Bart and Mutombo aren't shitting ingots, they're sitting on ingots. They even wanted to buy my flipper bods recently but dropped the subject when I said I would only part with them in exchange for DC/Shadow ingots.

The point is that mining has been rendered only profitable to those with advanced macros and these changes are curbing that. At least that's my opinion on the matter.