Stealing is so nerfed for any reason?

Awww, were no longer friends? You were all chummy when you wanted me to run people up on the forums for you. @Kirby said it best. Don't come in here spitting poison expecting a civil response, real world here bro. Takes respect to get it.

Besides if thieves were supposed to be anything in UO, they would come with 3x backstab damage....but they don't...

thieves are hated, pks nurtured, tamers op to a horrible faul

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Sneak Attack/Back-stab: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied..

Sorry ^^ this dates back to dungeons and dragons, the game almost all MMO's are replicated from. When I started playing D&D many many years ago, and fell in love with being a rouge. I was a vital part of our group. When I came to UO I was so excited to be able to play the character on something other then a piece of paper. Alas, I found out quickly the same thing you guys did too.They are left out almost all together. @One as you can see by my above post, if I was to go deep into a real thief nerf. I would pick a much better topic that is a little more to the point.

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Don't have to be friends to try and make more money, home boy!

Snap does a very good job of breaking down all the issues. It's unfortunate but as wylwrk said - it seems like it's all 'working as intended' though. I'm too sleepy to really give my opinion, but obviously I'm not the biggest fan of it. And suggesting that 'looting houses is a great moneymaker so thievery is not broken' is kind of a silly. Almost like it's a workaround for stealing being really lackluster.

I can also confirm that Mary Kate is at least a real person and has been running around all evening trying to steal/loot things etc.

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Well I wish I came on the forums and read about how terrible thieves are before I spent a week macroing to join the thieves guild.

Worry not; being a thief here is awesome. Sure, you can nitpick the mechanics of any class, but stealing isn't "super broken". You just have to know how it works, how it doesn't work, and not expect to have the game handed to you on a silver platter (there's a joke about killing liches in there somewhere).

I agree and a positive way to go about it for sure. I encourage all to play the game under the current rules as best as they possibly can. I would likewise appreciate official acknowledgement of official patch notes, publishes, and player experience on the subject.

I do not like that stealing is the way it is to avoid the outpouring of emotion from some players who feel they've been unjustly slighted or cheated. A good example would be the first few thefts of completed zookeeper scrolls. A player stole an item in game and all heck broke lose in game, in IRC, and on the forums.

The following are some officially published and easily researched items about stealing from Ultima Online

• Publish (nil) - February 24, 1999
  • The more armor you are wearing, the harder it will be to steal.
  • You will not be able to steal from other players unless you join the NPC Thieves Guild, or unless the target is an opponent in a guild war. (this is often a forgotten little bit of information)
  • Members of the Thieves Guild do not display professional titles on the paperdoll to anyone except themselves, regardless of skill level or fame.
  • There are four possible outcomes to stealing:
    • True success: you get the item and are not noticed
    • Partial success: you get the item, but are noticed
    • Partial failure: you do not get the item, but are not noticed
    • Total failure: you do not get the item, and your attempt is noticed
  • interesting side note: Wearing gloves will affect your success rate at lockpicking. The heavier the gloves, the harder it will be
  • interesting side note II: ... merely running into a blade spirit or energy vortex will no longer be grounds for reporting the caster for murder. The caster will become criminal should someone take indirect damage from such a spell, but much like fire field, they will not be reportable for murder.

• Publish (nil) - March 28, 1999
  • Stealth
    • snooping will reveal you (yes really)
    • you cannot stealth while riding a horse (still clamoring for era accuracy?)
    • It will become substantially more difficult to start stealth when in the vicinity of players.
      • The more players, the harder it will be
      • They have to be within 10 paces to count against you
      • Only players affect this, not NPCs
      • This only affects when you start stealthing, not while you walk stealthed
    • The number of steps you can take while stealthed has been halved
  • interesting side note: Flying from nightmares has been removed to prevent a house break-in exploit

• UO Live Access Patch - August 25, 1999
  • The following skills will not unhide you when they are used: Detect Hidden, Item Identification, Anatomy, Arms Lore, Animal Lore, Evaluate Intellect, Forensics Evaluation, and Poisoning
  • Update September 9, 1999 - going through a gate cast by a player, there will be a random delay of 3 to 10 seconds before you can go though that gate again, or through any other gate.
    • Note that this change is temporary. We will update you once it is changed back (haha)

• Publish 2 - January 24, 2000
  • You will no longer be able to use the stealing skill to determine if someone is "perma-gray".
  • Players who are not in the Thieves Guild will not be able to steal from other players at all.

Note: The above items were before the Renaissance publish. Unless otherwise specified by the following notes, it must be assumed these were not affected.

• Publish 5 (The Renaissance Patch) - April 27, 2000
  • Stealing has been fixed so that stealing specific items is now more difficult than "random" stealing
  • Leather armor will not cause any meditation or stealth penalty
  • 'Criminally flagged' characters will no longer be able to go through a moonstone gate
  • The "no recall for aggressors" system has been fixed so that:
    • You will not be able to recall while you are a criminal.
    • You will not be able to recall while you are an aggressor to a player.
    • Being an aggressor to a monster or NPC will not stop you from recalling.
    • Attacking a pet of a murderer or criminal will not stop you from recalling as neither of these actions will make you a criminal.

• Publish 7 - September 3, 2000
  • Players will again be able to steal random items from players without getting the "too heavy to be stolen" message. The random steal will still check the weight of the random item and factor that into the success or failure of the steal attempt.
  • Thieves will have a chance to snoop and remain hidden. This will be based on a check against their hiding skill. At zero hiding skill, a player will be revealed when failing snooping 100% of the time. At 100 hiding, a player will be revealed 50% of the time when failing snooping.

I do not think these notes should be implemented in the name of 'era accuracy'. I've always felt that argument is rather childish in that it often comes from a foolish singular vision as a means to simply get what they want. I've cited it a few times while trolling but truth be told... sometimes you just don't want era accuracy.

I listed these items as material to use should anyone take my advice.

State your case like a civilized adult only after you have attempted the situation in game as best as you can and can cite tangible results, outcomes, research, and other applicable data.

This server is not an absolute replica of the UO Renaissance era. If that's the objective, I would like to know.

Hoping I haven't just burned bridges I would lastly ask one thing that I feel would have a huge impact on the player base. When a proposal for change is repeatedly made and denied. State as such clearly with an official statement. Much emotion is invoked with the rehashing of subjects in multiple posts.


I left a few notes out, admittedly. I will finish by warning all to stop decrying what you disagree with citing "era accuracy". Were Chris to make the rogue skill set truly "era accurate" you'd find yourselves even more flustered than many of you are right now with what we do have.

I like this guy

pitchfork and torch production is up and on stand by

I agree with your idea of taking the game for what it is and forgetting that "era accurate" is important (it's not), but I don't really think you can use these patch notes as an example that "it would be worse if it was era accurate".

I took the liberty of highlighting a few lines from your patch notes to the following legend:

Normal: This is already present on UOR
Red: This is missing from UOR
Green: Feel free to add this, no thief should complain
DarkRed: Indicates I added a note in white
Orange: These changes were added then reverted back

I fully making all these era-accurate changes. Every single one of them. The only area here where I think UOR improved was the final note about 50% snoop from hiding. It's the same on UOR except with 0% to reveal at 100 skill, instead of 50%, which I think is a fair non-trammely compromise between the "never reveal ever" t2a mechanic and the trammely revealing late 2000 UOR mechanic.

I think we can totally ignore the patch notes, except maybe to look to them for guidance on what worked and what didn't work, also while keeping in mind that OSI's goals were not the same as UOR's goals. If you stick to patch notes as an argument, you end up with something like UOSA, which I think everyone finds rather boring after a while.

The truth is (in my opinion) that UOR is the best server for "thieves" currently out there, but that does not mean that there isn't much that deserves improving.

My suggestion is to stick with it. Be a thief. You wont make money, nearly every other (actually played) profession earns MUCH more than a thief and works less. The player base is, more-so than on other shards, anti-thief, so don't expect much of a voice in defending yourself. Success here depends on you as a player making the play style work. I loot everyone's house, extort players for money, rarely steal when it's worth it, and found my place as a shard villian, despite the lame "stealing skill" mechanics, and I think all of those are very rogue-like activities.

There are opportunities to make some great steals here still, but you aren't going to frequently just stumble onto a good trade at the bank where the items are actually stealable, or loot some nice rare in a dungeon due to weight/trammel. You have to put in considerable work to make it happen here, and a network of friends goes a long way in lightening the load.

Stealing here is exactly how it was in old UO, if you want 7k from a afk'er pack, you have to be creative and get it. Just got 8k off one myself in occlo. Sorry dude, but I truly needed it, I want a house. But I absolutely love stealing here. However, house owners ban you from their vendors for no reason other than your character is a thief, even if you do not break ant of their house rules. That doesn't seem fair but I guess it comes with the territory. So you're pretty much treated like an outcast but if you're good at what you do, youll be fine. One more thing, NEVER EVER tell anyone who your thief char is, it's the one absolute rule as a thief.

Oh crap, I must be the worst thief ever.

Also these noobs:
@chumbucket
@It'sallALark
@BlackEye
@Silas Blackeye

how the hell did you forget @Mandevu ?

He single handedly stole all of our hearts.

Nope, not even a tad close.

I'm not saying that, I'm just saying by revealing who your thief is, it sets limits of just how low down you can be. The only people who knows my thief are the ones who started UO with me back in the summer of 2000. Back then I didn't know any better.