What PvP changes would you like to see?

Yup. I was actually going to suit up and go out for some fights last night but then I remembered Lib said I don't PvP and I figured that means they don't want fights. So I went back to doing BoDs because that is what he said I do all the time.

Actually I went out and farmed a bit on my tamer but in any regard, I don't care to give him the satisfaction of easy wins so my efforts to motivate the underdog team of TB is effectively nullified at this point. GG

i've done that in a bunch of ways; tournaments, open forum discussions, trying to help hazy get TB in order all those months ago.. none of that has anything to do with my original assertion ITT that this thread is extraneous.

blaise's post tl;dr: i was going to pvp then i didn't.

But I don't pvp according to you, so why should I bother? I figure I'll be nice and just prove you right so you guys can sit around holding each other's dicks all night complaining about lack of PvP while you play Archeage.


Have fun fighting Hazy.

this is exactly why no one likes to discuss things on the forums.

Gosh, I only said bolas because Punt went out of his way on his post.

The conversation was going fine until you injected your non-points to derail it into a pissing match of who has merit in pvp discourse.
Just figured while we're off the rails, I'd make it clear that you won UOR PvP vs me because I'm weary of your claims that I don't pvp. Might as well prove you right and let go of any intention I had to practice more and try to build a team to fight the dominant faction(s).


*golf claps*

Was super fun while it lasted though, right guys?

Parry could be good against the high end weapons in factions. It could help entice people into joining Order/Chaos. Those shields used to be awesome and not just because they are free! I used to love playing a roach mage and was excited to make one here. Then I was very disappointed because it wasn't at all like how it used to be. I don't feel like this needs to be priority #1 or anything at all. I don't see many people playing dexers atm, so this really isn't a big issue. It still would be fun to play around with though.

rawr

PvP Snobism goin' on up in 'ere! YOU DON'T PVP LIEK ME YOU NO PVP EVERYTHING SHOULD BE LIEK ALWAYS BEEN.

This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This.

We'd have more dexers if more PVP changes were made to promote the playing of dexers. They were everywhere during UOR, so it's not a matter of "This wasn't a time when dexers were common" like the excuse pvpers used on previous shards.

I think Genocide meant for this to be a somewhat serious thread but I don't think it panned out. He and I don't get along mind you, but I believe he meant well.

If you accept from the start that this is a wish list (or pet project as Lib put it) thread then fine it's all good, keep asking for mandrake root on naked tamers or whatever the first half of page 1 was about. It would probably be better with some tag like "LOL JOKE THREAD" or "NON SERIOUS" in the title.

If anyone wanted to post something serious, I'd suggest you make well thought-out posts that detail how a change would:

1. Be relevant and an actual useful tool for new or current templates.
2. Not break the balance of current pvp mechanics in a way in which it becomes the only form of pvp.
3. Not be so unexpected or unusual that people entering the server are constantly saying "wtf is this? why does it do this instead of what would be expected?"

My original intention was to just disregard this thread since I know this isn't how Telamon looks for potential changes in earnest. You don't go to your grocer and ask them to diagnose your cough. You need reasonable, well articulated arguments. You can't just say "this would be neato and benefit my playstyle and further my personal goals!!"

Let me help you guys by responding to your ideas:

First actual idea: Parry should be changed to allow passive regeneration.

Arguments made by posters: roach mages were good. Run around with shield up to soak melee hits while medding.
Suggestion: allow meditation to work through shields.

1. Be relevant and an actual useful tool for new or current templates.
Failed. Parry would continue being irrelevant on mages in pvp. Posters believed passive mana regeneration was the problem. The actual problem is the best way to avoid melee damage is keep moving if you aren't casting. Why would one ever pick up 100 parrying and then purposefully let people hit them? They wouldn't. Save your 100 skill points and move away from melee hits.

What posters really meant to ask for was spell channeling shields. The only time a mage will willfully allow swings on them is when they are themselves casting, in which case a spell channeling shield could offer some protection. This is not era accurate however, and likely to be a pretty alien change for the UO:R era. It also has ramifications about balance between dex classes and pure mages that would lead to longer more drawn out fights and lead to more frustrations than anything, as well as probably require that staff first significantly lower armor on leather suits (which is it's entirely own issue instead.)

Your counterpoint: But I remember roach mages being awesome. No you don't. You thought it was a neat concept, just like poisoning mages. Many people mentioned it here and there. They were neat concepts. They sucked in pvp and that's common knowledge to people that were more than on the sideline.


Second actual idea: Stealing weights increased so heavier items can be stolen or general stealing buffs

1. Be relevant and an actual useful tool for new or current templates.
Failed. Stealing heavier items will not increase it's popularity or usefulness in pvp situations. Your suggestions will improve your ability to steal rares or not get guard whacked while you're standing around in a deathrobe at occlo bank. This isn't relevant to pvp mechanics.

Your counterpoint: But you could steal pitchforks and more regs in pvp. Doesn't matter. People will put their regs in several stacks. Stealing doesn't become relevant in pvp.

Third actual idea: Bolas to be introduced to pvp.

2. Not break the balance of current pvp mechanics in a way in which it becomes the only form of pvp.
Failed. Tamers become the only successfully played template. Nothing significant changes for your orc goals (which are valid goals, but fairly niche). Ganking intensifies.

Telamon had ideas for on foot only areas (like, enter the desert and be forced on foot). You would have more success asking him to push those changes out, or ask him for bolas that are usable only in those areas. He can't bring that to the server globally without upsetting very core pvp mechanics in UO. Have you tried fighting a tamer, two dragons, and a mare while on foot?


Fourth actual idea: Armor changes
This suggestion was pretty vague, but it seemed to be a change to make plate armor more relevant in some fashion, like decreasing dexterity penalties.

I think this is a fair request but presented too vaguely. Perhaps it could have been worded like: Plate dex penalties, difficulty crafting plate, and high barbed armor values marginalize the value of using plate armor. Then you could have followed that by suggesting values for lowered or removed penalties for platemail. You could also have asked for lowered barbed/horned/spined armor values. Which I think is already something Telamon is looking into. I think he has spent a lot of time this week thinking on this situation already.

Fifth actual idea: Poisoned Arrows / Archery Special Move (-dexterity)

3. Not be so unexpected or unusual that people entering the server are constantly saying "wtf is this? why does it do this instead of what would be expected?"
Failed. This would be a very custom mechanic. It doesn't make it outright impossible for Telamon to implement, but it would not at all be familiar to people coming to a UO:R server with an expectation of pvp mechanics.

I'm also very skeptical it would have any relevancy in pvp without many more serious changes to archery first. So this is getting quite a bit ahead of ourselves. Before this would be relevant, we'd want to address armor values, or weapon values, or introduce runic style bows, or make bows repairable before people would take archery in pvp seriously. If you've tried pvp here as an archer what you've likely experienced is a lot of slow, low damage hits. Putting a -minus dex- special move or poisoned arrows would certainly be attention to archery, but not a step in the right direction and they would continue to be under represented in pvp.




The rest of this thread so far is useless and ad hominem, which is the main reason that it will be pointless for Telamon to waste his time reading. Liberation was totally right in a lot of his points, but it was already a non constructive thread in my opinion. Just let people throw out pointless ideas and let it be what it is.

By the way, I don't think Liberation's viewpoint is from 5x fanboys that want to prevent parryer's or dexers from being relevant. I truly believe dexers are under represented in pvp and that there are reasonable ideas out there to help them. I truly believe parry deserves a place in pve and pvp and hope that constructive arguments are designed that Telamon can use as a jumping off point. It's quite boring for us to all play stun/scribe mages and if we want to change that we should thoughtfully discern why it is the way it is and what the best way is to go forward. Kepeing in mind, this server already has the best and most balanced pvp mechanics of any server I'm aware of, and if we want to preserve that we shouldn't lobby for drastic or wild changes.

From here, where do we go? Forget this thread, it's four pages of wasted energy that Telamon couldn't possible follow and nitpick the useful parts. Start over with guidelines for how an idea can be presented within the thread (As in, no one liners. Considerate posts that are not 'what change helps me.' Posts that take into account all aspects of their effect.

Or if you want to continue not being taken seriously, carry on.

I think one of the issues is that the successes with crafting, stealing, pvp often seem way off from UOR era, almost geared towards having powerscrolls. I feel like the chars overall where more powerful/successful, though they changed the rules every 3 months or so. None of the 1 point hits, macing would maul a blessed outfit (no pun intended) No failing disarm three times in a row. And the pvp thief is a viable topic for pvp discussions, stratics ended up with two forums for thieves the pvp thief (town stealing, wilderness stealing, dungeon stealing, fighting type thieves) and the ones who liked to hunt rares. Jack is almost a 7x mage thief, so as he goes blue, I'm going to start fighting back more, but if it takes 5 mins to steal 100 shade or something, the stealing/snooping are a waste of sps. (ideally thief proofing yourself will counter most problems) also if thieves get out of hand, people will start killing them and that leads to more pvp.

So what I think you're getting at is suggesting three different things in this paragraph:

1. Decrease the amount of frustrating low damage melee hits. How? Perhaps lower barbed armor values or raise the minimum damage of weapons. (I'm filling in where you could have made these suggestions.)

2. Make macing more relevant by increasing damage dealt to armor. A totally reasonable request. Macers are very unpopular. I think it's a great idea.

3. Stealing ? Maybe you wanted to suggest that if you did a specific steal on a stack of 60 nightshade you have a very reasonable expectation to steal the entire stack, thus reintroducing expected thief strategy from the UOR era in a pvp situation. This would be completely reasonable. But be specific. Don't just say thieves were good because stratics said so (lol?), make thieves good again. Think it out and make a clear argument or expect noone to read or care.

So it's your opinion that he's right when he repeatedly states that people without as much skin in the game as him have not the clout to speak about pvp? I didn't see a "lot" of other points than that in his responses but maybe I'm just jaded.

Well said on your other points, however I disagree about Parry unless you were only specifically speaking to effectiveness for mages.


On Jack's point about stealing, considering we have an entirely custom (that I'm aware of) option of stackable potions here, being able to steal those en masse should be put on the table for discussion. On my thief-hunter character I specifically don't stack potions (tedious but effective) and I carry many piles of bandages to thwart my targets. Looting every single potion and reagent is a snap here, because of stackable potions so perhaps some give to the thieves in that regard might adjust that balance back more.

Also, on the point of stacking potions, the fact that you can carry a significant amount more on your person as a result of this change, makes battles (particularly 1v1s) last inordinately long, in my opinion. If you can pack 50 cures, 30 heals, 20 reds, 10 blues, 10 whites and 50 purples....you might be OP. lol

Well, I've said my piece, I had no plans to get into a flamewar so I'll just let you guys assume you have all the answers and remove myself from this discussion.

You opened your mouth to say he's right on "a lot of points" so what were they? I'm not trying to flame. I would like to know which points were so valid they were worth agreeing with, but if it's just that we're not PvP enough to talk about it, then yeah, I guess save your breath.

thieves just need a few tweaks, esp for pvp. you'll see folks have fun making detectives again too.

Technically speaking, HateCrime is the only person I've seen play an effective PvP thief. You and I have had a few goes but nothing outside of normal thief chasing.

Hate actually clipped a good number of high end weapons, mid-fight, while running sigils or other faction related combat scenarios. He was far from ineffective but I still feel the stacked items made themselves a non-target because of the points you've made about weights several times.

this thread

I'm not seeking a win here but if you want to sink to sad Liberation levels and post memes to make your point, go right ahead. I always like your replies because the majority are well thought out, well worded and mostly intelligent. Then you come out with "Liberation is totally right" and back it up with this shit meme?

I guess that's what you want from pvp too. Thanks for taking part in the conversation. For what it's worth the conversation is still ongoing, whether or not you think it's high brow enough for the most elite of pvpers to care.