Hi Gideon, Would I, right now with the timer unchanged, be able to take your mining macro, add a razor screen shot every loop or two and eliminate the 90 second check with an external program that pops up when it sees the afk gump appear? The afk gump stays away hours at a time, so that would interrupt me several hours apart, not 90 seconds or 9.5 minutes apart, right? Without any change to the afk timer? If you answer yes, then with a 10-minute timer in place there would be two comparable ways to abuse the system: 1. Macro-mine and check the screen once every 9 minutes for an afk gump. 2. Macro-mine and write a gump detector. Switch screens only when the gump detector goes off. Do you disagree? Is one of these two methods definitely not workable? You're a smart guy who knows lots of UO players. Give me percentages on each. Of abusers who would choose to macro-mine using one of these techniques, how many choose #1 and how many choose #2? Regards, Wil
Hi Jack, I agree 100% with both parts of that statement. I'm not convinced that bumping the gump timer from 2 to 10 minutes would change it, though I'll credit Gideon with making a solid argument. So, let me ask you the same question I asked Gideon: spin me a scenario in which a 10-minute timer has enabled an afk gathering macro which couldn't readily be made to work well when the timer was 2 minutes. How would you build that macro? Poke holes in my idea, darn it. If it's a bad idea, don't just say "meh," talk me through a scenario that demonstrates why it's a bad idea. Regards, Wil
Hi Gideon, I asked you two direct questions to clarify my understanding of your scenario. 1. With the proposed gump detector added to your macro, would it be practical for me to macro-mine as you described without having to regularly check the screen for the afk gump based on *today's* anti-afk system? Yes or no? 2. Based on your knowledge of UO players, what estimate would you offer of percentage of abusers who would write the gump detector versus abusers who would check the screen every 9 minutes were a 10 minute timer implemented? If you already answered, I apologize for not recognizing or understanding your answer. I assure you that if you answer yes or no to the first question and give me two numbers which add up to 100 for the second, I will understand your answer. Regards, Wil
42FFF in hexadecimal but still not an answer to either of the questions we "already went over." I get it. You think I'm asking the wrong questions. I should be asking whether increasing the timer to 10 minutes increases the number of ways and ease of cheating the system. You think the answer is yes and you've made a convincing case why that's so. Unfortunately, that isn't among the questions I seek an answer to and with good reason: if there's a practical way to cheat, it'll be found. Comparing two numbers of practical ways to cheat, both greater than zero, is the wrong yard stick. The right one is achievability and ease of the easiest way. Is the achievability altered by changing the timer and is the easiest way appreciable easier? From what you've said so far, the answer to that question looks a lot like "no." Which means that if folks aren't cheating now, changing the timer to 10 minutes won't cause them to start. Regards, Wil
I don't think it matters what percentage of players would or could abuse any timer. You only need one person abusing the system to start having a negative impact on the economy. Also, it appears that you and I have a very similar pace to our play-styles, Wil. I'm constantly up and down from the keyboard and in and out of my game window. It's always seemed to me that our anti-AFK system is built to protect the economy from people like us. I don't think I should safely be able to collect resources when I'm doing much else. If we upped the gump timer to 10 minutes it would perfectly suit the way I go back and forth between active and inactive now and allow me to essentially keep running an active macro the entire time I'm not at work or asleep. A lot of players would be able to keep up that pace at work, too. I'm not concerned with my ability to be actively gaining something when I'm not actively putting in the work. I think this feeling or lack thereof might be the crux of the disagreements here. I can understand and respect a difference of opinion about just how much effort or attention should go into performing a task. I can also accept the fact that almost every suggestion for change is going to be based on the playstyle or schedule of the person making the suggestion. What needs to be considered here is really just this: Should this system allow for bathroom breaks, laundry duty or washing the dishes? I don't think so. It already allows for entertaining yourself during the tedious hours of resource gathering by chatting in IRC, web-browsing and more active play on another account. I think that's generous enough and say pause your macro when you're taking care of other business or just do the jail-time when the gump catches you. In fact, this thread has really hightened my appreciation of our current anti-AFK system. It keeps people actively involved in community interaction when they're not actively involved in watching their mining macros. Besides, if we up the timer to ten minutes the next thread will be from someone who doesn't like that because it's not enough time to go to the store or clean the gutters.
Whatever man. This ain't court. If you don't like where the questions lead, I can't compel you to keep answering.
^^^^ ---------- Finally you are correct. Which is why I am expressing my own opinion, not unlike you have been throughout this thread. Its been a long day so lets sum up what we have so far: Wil: The AFK system is too strict. It would be better if it was more lenient. Everyone else: The system is fine (or is too lenient). Look Wil, you're obviously not a lazy imbecile, you've spent quite some time just rebutting posts in this thread alone, and doing so in a polite and well written manner I might add. However, simply because you are polishing a turd, does not mean that I will accept it as anything else. Even if you want the resources for a good cause like spending time crafting for the shard or engaging in stimulating pvp, UO is made so we all toil, part of the fun is finding a niche where you are having fun while profiting. Maybe you should try to reignite your passion for why you love UO and play it, I am damn sure it can be a lot more fun than loading a dish washer. I will never speak for the staff but so far they have been doing a stellar job at balancing perfecting the shard and dealing with everyone's different preferences of playstyle. There is a reason why you joined and why as of late there has been a mass flocking to this part of the freeshard universe, and its not because gathering resources is easily automatable. Its because people realize this shard is run on a smart policy of slow and steady changes implemented after much deliberation. Every insight is valued but I think we are running around in circles on this one. Imagine how much mining we could have done instead. Cheers
Hi Godric, Fair enough. What do you think about the other three ideas? Second chance, cooldown and big gump? Regards, Wil
Howdy, On that we wholeheartedly agree. Tell you what: I don't see anybody else jumping up and down to raise the timer, even if I don't think the folks against it haven't quite articulated where that fails. So, let's drop it. I had three other suggestions and Basoosh offered a fourth. All of these impact the action of the afk system in the complete absence of any macroing at all. * A second chance gump for the first wrong answer, * a jail count cooldown timer, * a bigger gump with the buttons not in the center of the screen where you're often in the middle of clicking and * get rid of the four-bottles version of the gump that's easy to screw up. A gp for your thoughts. Regards, Wil
I voiced my support of the cool-down on page one but would gladly reiterate that. I don't really see a problem with the second chance or big gump. If we do get a second chance I don't plan on ever seeing it, myself. One thing I might suggest instead of a "big" gump is a non-transparent one. I like the way it looks currently but making the background solid could be a better solution to the problem. Decentering the gump might also be good.
I can see someone using an account simply to automate the miner, and guess the answer on the gump, if you go to jail you wait it out and slowly as you accumulate jail time you eventually dump that character and create a new one. Who cares about raising mining every time if you're doing it all afk. Really you can use 2 accounts for this and just play on the third. I am sure someone smarter than me can work out the kinks to make this effective enough so they get plenty of afk ingots. A second chance gump simply makes it easier for those people to prolong that miners life with a double chance at avoiding jail every gump. I am not against a second gump IF they make the gump appear much more often. If you are attended you should have no problem answering it the first time, and if you make the odd mistake, well you got that second chance. Now while I risk speaking for staff here I believe the reason for increasing jail terms is to enforce attendance discipline. If one does not learn the first time, then the punishment increases, and if one continues to refrain from learning, maybe that task is not for that person. Also, it is my understanding that if you make a mistake on the gump, you can ask staff to get the punishment nullified or at least the term kept at the same level. A legitimate request, while were at it, lets make gems 10 times the size, its really annoying picking them up when they are so small, I often die from dragons and other vile monsters while trying to grab that last diamond. While we're at it, can we change the diamond icon to something that doesn't look so much like platinum, its a real bummer when I see a diamond thinking its platinum. Also, when I die, can I get an auto self loot feature when I come back to the corpse. I mean I made it back in time by my own means, do I really have to pick up my stuff item by item? Ya get me? Fine, you can have this one although my cynical ass can find a way to plop on that too
Howdy, I would not be opposed to a more frequent check if I got a second chance when I got it wrong. One of the times I was sent to jail... I looked at the gump, I identified the correct answer and then I steadfastly move the pointer over and clicked the wrong button. That happens to me now and then, the signals just get crossed. Don't sit me at the missile launch console. I'd be dangerous! The way my state does it with drivers' licenses is like this: speeding, 1 point. speeding very fast, 2 points. Points for various other moving violations. Too many points? Lose your license. BUT, go a year with no tickets: -2 points. So you don't lose your license because you got leadfoot 10 years ago... you lose it because you continue to get leadfoot often. If you haven't made a mistake with the gump yet, well, you will. I'll probably make more mistakes than you will, but you're not perfect either. A cooldown would mean that the "learning experiences" two years ago don't come back to haunt you when you make an honest mistake now. If I had the time and inclination to go digging through the client-side art files, this is the second thing I'd change. The first thing is the spider silk graphic. That thing's damn hard to grab. Yes, actually, that's the reward for the Sacrifice virtue. You don't even have to return to the corpse. It's really slick. I can't wait to see what the crew comes up with for the 5 unassigned virtues. Heh.
For every time you pressed the gump wrong, I have been farming and spaced out on another screen either to miss my loot before the corpse rots, or the ever more fun, return to the dark grey screen. I hear your point about making the annoying things less annoying, but I am and always will be a strong supporter of keeping the difficult things difficult. Good chat all round, this is definitely the spirit we should be keeping about sharing ideas. Also definitely time to pass out Cheers
Hi Godric, You could be under attack when your scavenger agent triggers the gump. That hasn't happened to me yet, but it could. Does that impact your thinking on making the gump opaque? Regards, Wil
Hi Gideon, I greatly appreciated the compilation of skill training guides you put together. It obviously took a great deal of work and it has been invaluable to me these past several months. Because of that residual indebtedness, I will withhold my preferred retort and very politely ask you to explain how anything we're discussing in this thread is Trammelesque. The difference between Trammel and Felucca was non-consensual PvP. Right? I just don't see PvP in any of its forms at issue in this conversation. Sometimes I wonder if there ought not be a Godwin's Law for mentioning Trammel in a UO forum. Regards, Wil
