Griefing

Do I really have to link the other thread in to this thread to show where it originated from?

See your own words below. You implied that I was a guy who got griefed, "more akin to".

I'm not implying anything. I'm telling people very specifically how they're using the word griefing in the incorrect manner, and it's done frequently.
No implying. I rarely imply anything.

There is no irony. I think you also misunderstand that word.

Thievin' aint griefin'.

@wylwrk

I mostly agree with this, the intent of my post was to show that griefing by itself was less a buzzword originally rather than just a product of the environment. It is definitely the prior now, but people still don't fully understand what it is since for the most part, people can't do it as much anymore due to the reasons you stated IE whining to admins until the game fits your narrative, rather than learning to deal with the problem like a good player does.

Looting someone's house can make them quit the game, and while personally that was never my goal when I caused trouble; a lot of griefers would consider that the ultimate payday.

All 3 things are activities that griefers enjoy, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're griefing. For example if I was house looted, I'd sigh and kill more stuff. Other people come on IRC and yell for 2 hours because a red PK'd them and the red didn't rez them on the spot or something equally idiotic.

You just agreed with @JimmyTheHand

Is this the part where you hug it out?

It is though, because 95% of players will freak the hell out if you steal their shit lmao. That's the goal of a griefer. It doesn't matter if I was putting fishsteaks on the ground, if it pissed you off(auto pickup!)it could count as griefing. The difference in opinion here is that you think what I'm saying is equivalent to kids yellin U GOT TROLLED BUB. It really isn't.

Thieving in it's very nature is a skill meant to cause players trouble, stealing at a bank? In town? Really? Can you name any other popular mmos that ever had a system like that? Do you know why you can't name any?

@wylwrk I could still point out where we differ. But I think it's just going to cause more nonsense.

This is exactly my point. It is being used constantly in a 'buzz word' manner.
Whereas, originally, to be called a griefer was something quite bad and could get you shunned by a community.

This is how it should still be.

The goal of a thief is to steal items from a player to benefit themselves, not to cause them to freak out. If you do something to ruin the experience of others, specifically and only to do that, then it is griefing.

Anything else is essentially just playing the game differently to them.

Edit: I reworded to be clearer, apologies to anyone who replied to the original wording.

Oh I'm aware, but a single shard's rules doesn't dictate what the term historically has meant. I haven't griefed here, I mine elementals and I'm happy with this new peaceful lifestyle. But again, I have a thief. So I don't need to housekill, because if I follow a jerk home I can take his stuff.

I've pointed out, that historically, the world agrees with me. Never have I even mentioned UOR's rules.

It's an inherent byproduct, someone takes your shit in what is a safe area in the rest of the gaming world. People literally get angry if a red doesn't rez them. So angry they react LIKE a griefer would want, even if that wasn't the intent.

Is the guy that killed him breaking the rules? No, of course not. But this server has had to take a hard line on certain activities in order to foster a longer lasting community; which is important for private servers as they don't have the volume of official servers. Every game I mentioned had 50-100k players easy.

Again, that's my point.

It is not griefing if the intent wasn't to grief. Regardless of whoever is crying foul.
I have to brb, missus, valentines day, etc.

I shall return though!

I just think it's a bit deeper than that. I don't think someone needs that as their normal playstyle in order for it to count as griefing, I guess. I feel that if you kill some dude or take his shit, and you smile and/or laugh your butt off when they try to kill you and die, or run on IRC to say "HEY WHO IS "NAME" BECAUSE IM GONNA KILL HIM" you enjoy causing others grief. Are you a GRIEFER in that people can call you that all the time? Not really. But you enjoyed it. You enjoyed manipulating someone for that brief period where you had complete control over them with the end result benefiting you financially.

That's the mindset of a griefer. And regardless of if you do it all the time or not, it's causing people grief and you're getting a positive emotional response(WOA FREE SLAYER WEAPON).

I would argue that hurting someone financially causes MORE grief than just causing someone trouble that can be fixed by a quick ignore and/or ebolt.

Edit: I keep thinking back to when I would tell people I was griefing "hey bro its game mechanics get used to it it aint griefin" and all it would do is infuriate them more. That's why I think it's funny a thief main has this opinion, because I feel like you would say that to a guy you just stole a christmas scroll from. That guy will remember you, as a thief, stealing that scroll. He won't remember some guy saying U MAD. Thieves are the source of so so many stories of people dealing with grief.

I think the true debate here is griefing vs trolling. Griefing is easily summed up by the basic definition that Duke posted, tho that is so subjective due to the variety of different players. This was my problem with what you said originally. As I said, some players could get griefed by fish steaks. It's a case by case basis. My opinion is that "trolling" is the word that has essentially taken the place of griefing, while not remaining true to it's original intent anyway. If a kids yelling at you, he's not gonna say "you got griefed!!!" he's gonna say you got trolled. Generally they do neither, but that's the shift that's happened because of bad streamers basically.

Just because the mechanics are extra mean doesn't mean what you do isn't technically griefing, you're choosing to be a class that manipulates
players, and just like being a thief in real life; it's inherently malicious with the intent of getting you ahead. And you enjoy it. Does that make you a sociopath? Nah. But it is what it is. If I poke someone in the gut I'm causing them grief for a second, but it isn't malicious. So what would stealing from someone(time is money)count as, since it is malicious in its nature?

The beauty of UO is that house looting, thieving etc are all so normalized most people can deal with it relatively well, so drama isn't as bad. But it's also why new players are so rare, they didn't grow up with griefing being BUILT IN to the games they played, so they get looted once or twice and they quit.

You're calling an apple an orange. If you cause grief to players due to how you play, be it a PK, thief or any number of combinations UO offers, and *especially* if you enjoy it, you enjoy griefing in some form.

To summarize: I know we agree on it being overused, but we disagree on what it actually is. In most games, you can't do any of the things UO allows, thus the opportunity to "grief" is significantly lower if not impossible due to considerations in development. This also changes what griefing means to players of each game, though people are big carebears now so that plays a role too. Maybe partly BECAUSE of games dumbing themselves down, that is speculation however.. UO is a special gem in that no such considerations were made and no popular free shard will eliminate all those unique "kinks" because that's half the reason people come back to UO to begin with. If you smile at the misfortune of another, even if it's some guy that tried to murder you, you enjoy griefing a lil bit in your heart. It's human nature to be somewhat of a trouble maker, but there is a large difference between that in UO and what caused the griefing rule to be put in(a dude literally only house killing for months and months).

I mean, if a red only has fun PKing, and you continuously stop him from doing what he enjoys and he starts going nuts because you kill him over and over, you're spoiling(griefing/trolling at this point)his gameplay. There is a much higher chance it's reversed of course, but just a thought on the nature of the act itself. The overuse of the word comes from the unfortunate current internet culture where everything, no matter how complex or nuanced, must be compressed into a stupid meme and/or buzzword. And regarding that newsgroup, unless that group has 100k+ members and has had top guilds in all major mmos, I would say no I don't think you know who cemented the meaning in the 00s. Griefing as a concept is probably very old, it's not like it doesn't happen in real life. During the 00's however games came out that let people go ham so it became what it was. Turns out a lot of people are rude dudes.

The server’s code of conduct is what matters here, not exterior definitions.

With this subject, it’s easy to get lost in the minutia. Were the conversation to focus on the scope of rules here I’d hope the conversation would relegate to a much shorter exchange.

Using the word grief/griefing here points to breaking the code of conduct to more and more players lately. This is what is being discussed here.

@wylwrk Yep, I never mentioned UOR's rules specifically, but the essence of what you've said is what I'm trying to get across; that the use of those words carries a heavy negative connotation. It brands players as someone who's doing something that is really bad. As you said, it's actually breaking the code of conduct, both here and on most MMO's.

@Brick Your posts seem to segue in to topics that aren't really the point of the thread. Trolling for example, well that's entirely different from the accepted definition of griefing in the gaming community as a whole. Regardless of whether it's being used incorrectly or in place of the older word griefing, it's not what we're discussing. The thread is definitely not intended to discuss the word griefing versus the word trolling. You might feel that topic is something to discuss, but this isn't the thread for it.

So, let's get back to the topic at hand.

I know I'm repeating myself, but a lot of folks won't read the entirety of this thread, because "too many words". In admitting that repetition, here I go once more.
Just because someone feels grief, does not mean the person who affected their gameplay is griefing them. Griefing them being the intentional act of causing someone grief in order to ruin their gameplay.

Please, UOR community, I would like us as a whole to attempt to stamp out the overuse of this word. I'd really like to see everyone try to remind people to only use such a negative term in the appropriate situation, as well as encourage others to not throw it around.

I addressed that very point. I'm aware of what griefing is here and why the rules were put in place, Telamon has spoken on that a multitude of times. Just because some kid cries wolf doesn't mean the forest is filled with wolves, this server has some pretty intense logs; the rules from what I've heard..were based on consistent server-ruining practices with most likely malicious intent against the owner himself, rather than some dude gettin owned and then letting them rez kill him 5 times because for some reason he's letting a MURDERER REZ HIM. The reason people misuse the word so much won't be helped by saying "well the only thing that's actually griefing is big time malicious intent okay". How do you know when someone is being malicious or just playing the game? Do they have to say something to you?

My idea from all the servers and games I've played is to recognize griefing for what it is, it's something a LARGE portion of online gamers enjoy in some capacity(every GTA player lmao). You also can't exactly track it due to what I said earlier(they have to admit guilt essentially, unless its like a 2 week long trolling campaign or something). So recognize the basic griefing forms, give some warnings for dealing with them(there are great guides on housing, thieves, etc)and then limit extensive trolling or certain short term griefing that hurts the server. Repurposing the word for a single server on a single game is just odd, just be specific and less people get confused. There is always gonna be some RPer that cries hard, don't base things off that person. That's not the average player, not on a Felucca-based shard.

You can skip the points if you want, I covered exactly why what you're doing is silly and superfluous in the grand scheme of things. A fire is a fire. You commit a crime, you do the time. You cause grief, you're griefing. It's not even semantics at this point. The only thing you're confused about is the severity or duration of said griefing, which is what turns it into "trolling". And what this servers rules were meant to address. Nobody quits over being house killed once or twice, in fact most people(myself included)always expected to die in a house if we fell asleep not hidden. And really....more people seem to agree with that point than with what you said, so repeating it ad nauseum without any real substance won't convince them.

@Brick You're really confused about this whole think I think. Including people's support of your off topic ranting. Seriously, re-read the whole thread.

No one is re-purposing the word, in fact there's a multitude of evidence that says YOU are re-purposing the word. You and your little forum without a name that you think invented it. Each of your posts reeks of a belief of self importance.

Now that has been said...

Please, for the love of all that is holy, both Brick and anyone else that may stray from the topic:

Just stick to what we're discussing.

Which is: The over use of the words griefing and griefer. If you cannot do that, then please just don't post.

Reiteration number 3,657: A griefer is not someone who simply causes grief. That would mean that anyone who is sad in their trammypants would be valid in throwing the term around.

A griefer is someone who sets out with the goal in mind to cause grief. That, and only that.

Even if someone is literally crying tears of blood and squealing like a stuck pig because something happened to them does not immediately make the person who did it a griefer.

Oh bullshit, Horno... apply the same filter to Telamon’s chat logs.

You know the point being made here.

I'm not argueing that people are wrong often when they use the word grief. I don't think the term griefer holds nearly as much weight as the actual circumstances behind it being used. Is it overused and oft applied to all the situations jimmy has mentioned? Ya. But who cares, its lost its power DUE to this overuse. I have never thought of the word griefer as some awful slandering word that could result in someone being banned. The word holds like no weight because so many newbs use it the way they use it whenever they get rez killed. So I guess it just seems overly optimistic to try and change how the word is actually being used. Just accept the morphing of the word!