That's odd. You don't consider everyone's opinion worthwhile? Random unknown? That is the elitist attitude that comes across from the regulars on the forum. They (regulars with a big mouth) are happy the server is moving in their direction, while other broken aspects are ignored to cater to the PVM crowd. That is a legitimate feeling that comes across as one reads through the forum. And you sir fully proved that with your response. All with the excuse that it was this way 15 years ago on a production shard so why change it. Simply moving to another shard is a sad form of argument in the same stance as if you don't like America move. Basically like it how it is or tough luck. Time gold sinks are simply lazy additions to fool the playerbase to keep playing so they keep paying. A housing tax could be considered a time sink, but it at least forces the people that just log on every now and again to renew a house they never use to actually play the game. Jura I dont feel like you are being combative, im just trying to show another side of the coin that is not really represented well here. I am glad you can come across as an adult. On top of that I fail to see how it falls into a circular fallacy. I do not go A therefore A, or imply b is true because a is. Nor do I beg the question. The conclusion is not doubted. The only spot that is iffy is when I ask why make a crafter when gold is very easy to get from a main character. However, it is a legitimate question. Why make one when someone else is willing to make 3 and take a loss all while the gold from mobs is like taking candy from a baby. Also most crafters are made to help supply a main or if one does not like to farm mobs. On to farming, barding is probably the easiest farming templates overall, with the only downside of no PVP protection. Such little overhead is needed. Have a mage friend come along and profit big time. All classes need to be countered. This isnt OSI where the time/gold sink was getting skills and the limited room for resources. This spiraled out of control after tram(free farming), which in my opinion is when UO died. For the ones that have fun on the shard, great. I am glad you enjoy yourselves. However, others wish for their play style needs to come into consideration. Without being berated for having a different outlook for the shard. FYI Blaise, its not very professional to respond to a post like that if you are a moderator. Seeing that you are a volunteer, it gives one the reputation of representing the shard and site in a non biased way. At least I think so.
My apologies for the lack of clarity in the role I fill on these forums. My moderation is explicitly and solely that of the Salty Dog Tavern. I in no way moderate or control any other aspect of the forums, game or other channel of the shard. I do however contribute a lot of time and effort in communication, deliberation, discourse, testing, remediation discussion and direct support of the shard, both technically, vocally and spiritually as I pray this be the last shard I ever play. I'm kidding about that very last statement, as it were, I don't pray. All told I think everyone and every play style is more than welcome to raise a hand and say 'hey, this shit ain't right'. They can choose to do that privately with administration, or carry it out here on the forums with the community. I love the community and idea flow that occurs with or without heated discussions. We are all communicating rather well here so let's just have at. Stat Loss is in on UO:R for the forseeable future from my perspective and the closest thing I'd put my money on is a variation of duration or effect (time per count or percent lost). It doesn't affect me terribly because it is the %1 of my gaming that I hardly even think about, let alone play. Also, in regards to crafting....and a reason why someone would....errr, ya know.....this is an RPG. You can also be a beggar. I could do the same in real life an amass an equivalent fortune. I could go kill people in real life and it would set me back pretty damn far as well. Do not bother with the comparison to reality argument. It holds zero weight with me in a game that is a fantasy based on reality with the bonus of magic and monsters. Anyway, text wall in your court. I wish you well and appreciate your fervor to contribute to the shard. Now lemme go read what Gideon wrote.
Thanks for the reply Blaise. It helps me understand a bit more. I really do appreciate what people like you seem to do. It is more work then I would like to do. To Jura: It is confusing when you use fallacies yourself to try and debunk anything. I listen, and I read what is said, but when people start to post pictures, quote one word and start throwing ad hominems around, it is hard to take any of them seriously. You made three GM crafters in 8 months with the use of 2 million gold before that? In which you sell so much you can not supply enough yet cant make enough to break into profit? You dont see a problem in which in 8 months you had at LEAST 2 million gold to simply supply 3 gm crafters? 1: What did you point out? What was your proof? Was your proof simply saying that you are "out of stock" a lot in which no quantifiable number of items were even discussed? Dicto Simpliciter at its finest. Where I gave you just a simple answer to refute your simple example in which I had a gm crafter buying things from other vendors. 2: I never said gold sinks were a flawed way to make a game. I said time gold sinks are a flawed way to make a game. If you try to refute a point, please make sure you understand what you are refuting in the first place. I even point out a fairly good gold sink after that sentence I believe. And you "Begged the question" at the end of your small little rant here with some hyperbole. A form of circular logic that you accused me of to begin with. Not to mention a slippery slope fallacy bound in the middle. 3:Just because gold is easy to get in every single game, makes the point absolute? Just because you cannot think of a way other then the two ways you proposed does not mean there is no easier way to sink the gold better for a free shard. Its bordering on personal incredulity. The flow of gold might have slowed because most needs are fed after a lot of free farming for the last few months. Different perspectives. It is hard to say what the main reason is, but the population is to small for such a large landmass. With so much room for free housing to be an effective sink. At least when the land mass filled up on osi, the prices of houses went up. Here anyone can get a spot and simply buy it at deed price.
Please read my posts more carefully. It was on Lake Superior OSI as clearly stated. Not sure why it would matter otherwise. If you can still look characters up online from UO his name was Sisoc I believe.
How is it ironic that I point out that your argument follows a fallacy? You blanket statement everything I say as a fallacy yet use the same fallacy to try and prove it. That is irony. I am simply pointing out a view point that is opposite of yours, when you try to refute a point I show fault. You don't need to get all emotional. Prove your points, state your case, defend it, and off you go. No reason to be rude. Use honey, we will get more people to the shard that way. :lol: Are you assuming I don't play or have never played? Do I not play UOSA? You assume to much. Are you also assuming I do not have a GM Inscribe mage that bought full spell books before to save time from actually building them myself? Look up the high famed richard nixon. The guild should look familiar. Are you also assuming I do not play because of the economy or pvp, or maybe my brother does not play as much? You need to stop and try to look at it from another perspective. If you want one to follow your points and understand them, state them in a logical way maybe with some facts or sources.
I simply responded to your posts. Nothing more, and stated where you were faulty. You called out a circular fallacy, and I pointed out many fallacies that you accrued trying to disprove something. I understand where you are coming from. It is just simply slated in opinion. I am just trying to point out another point of view that is valid to another play style. You get defensive, emotional and simply reply with no added argument or ideas. You wish to save face on an internet forum for whatever reason. All I wish is to have a constructive dialog with others to see if we can get more folks playing on the server. I have called out multiple faults when you try to state something. Such as the time sink. You simply state I am wrong and show no proof or engage further other then trying to disparage me. My argument has been the same, I am just simply following you as you led into other facets of the PVM pkstat loss debate. Do not blame me for refuting your points. That is the idea of an argument, correct? If you cannot post toward the topic at hand without being rude or forwarding the discussion, maybe you should keep from posting on that topic. If anything you act as an authority where your points are the only valid ones. I, as stated before, am simply trying to voice another view that seems to be forgotten. It would be nice to get this back on topic. Since it is an interesting topic with fairly good ideas. Just to let you know, you are posing a argumentum ad hominem. Simply diverting the argument onto me. If you want to throw around fallacies try not to use so many in your "argument".
Sadly what you have created is a straw man argument. You misconstrue the words to fit your view. Here is a example, "events are bad". No, events used to bring people together should not be the main way the player base gets together. The game should do this already, not relying on an event. Reread the post. You clearly stated you used YOUR yew vendor as a means to view the economy. Who cares? It is one point, still with no idea of what is being sold. You might be right, yet you prove nothing. The economy is more then one or two vendors in yew. You yourself said you can not keep up with the demand. Good for you bad for the economy, right? Maybe charge more? Also I agree with a gold sink, I have from the start. No idea why you argue the point when I CLEARLY agreed with the idea. Where do you see that I couldnt make gold on UOSA? I could not make the same level of gold I made on uoren. I still had a small, a 6x mage and a 5x dexer. You are simply making things up as you go along. I think I understand your lack of readers comp the more you try to explain things away. Not trying to be mean, but I think you need to slow down and really try and understand the points along the way before jumping to conclusions. You also ignore the hyperbolic question and slippery slope you proposed. You did not address it at all. Again you are basing everything on opinion and trying to prove it as fact. It doesn't matter if it works in other games, they do not dictate what we do, you need to understand that. It is not proof. Hence pointing out the flaw. I do not care if you have a lot of gold. You said it took 2 million gold to build your three crafters and are still down 1 million, yet to hit profit. It is what you said, its not my problem you are not clear in what you write. I havent played actively in 6 months? I was on a few days ago. You really need to stop assuming. Hit harpies and ran around on the roads looking for people. I believe I logged at glow. I usually check on the server every now and again. My play style however is not mindless mob farming, never has been. I cannot play everyday, and am completely happy with a small house. I do not need millions to enjoy a game. What have you added? Put up a straw man argument proving nothing but showing your opinion yet giving nothing to prove they benefit anything but yourself. It is about what is best for the community as a whole so everyone has fun. I have stuck to the same points simply showing fault in your points. I am not sure how I am jumping around when I am working off your assumptions.
GONG, I am a laman, Can you please explain your point in two sentences maximum so that I can understand what it is you are trying to accomplish? I've now read about three novels worth of gibberish pertaining to how things are said and not WHAT is being said and, quite frankly, you have a terrible time of just making a point. What is your point. What are you suggesting be changed and how, for what specific reasons and how will it truly benefit the shard?
There you go again with a personal attack. If you cannot keep this on topic, why bother to post? To troll? I point out your faults in logic and back mine up at the same time, and you name call. That is your only response every time. You just forget about the straw man you created earlier and create ANOTHER one to explain fault while throwing f bombs and still proving no proof to back up assertions. It is laughable. There is little reason to respond again if all you are going to do is name call, spin words and your own idea of what is being said. Explain to me moderators why this is allowed at all? The personal attacks need to be reigned in so we can have a adult civilized conversation. Not sure how it is gibberish when one calls out fault and one shows fault in such an accusation to begin with. Simply I feel three accounts are to much for such a small server. Having a limited number of templates would give other play styles more meaning. Being able to create a tamer, bard, dexer of all kinds, mage in many forms, all forms of craters x3, no one HAS To rely on others. It takes the real templates and waters them down, there are so many possibilities yet everyone can roll whatever. Need an archer ok let me log on, need a tamer ok let me log on, ect. Every possibility is realized within a small number of people. PKs wouldn't have such a large amount of room to bypass the rules as they are now, and well you said two sentences. Not sure how one explains anything in that amount of time so ill leave it at that.
