Question about metals

Currently:

Tunic - Dex Hit
Plate - 8
Bone - 6
Chain - 5
Ring - 2

Legs
Plate - 6
Bone - 4
Chain - 3
Ring - 1

PERFECTED:

Tunic
Plate - 6
Bone - 3
Chain - 3

Legs
Plate - 3
Bone - 2
Chain - 2

I do not think Ring armor needs a change. Bone and Chain have the same AR range from 13-28 for tunic and 5-9 for legs (basic exceptional to invuln), I don't see why bone should be hit extra so I dropped it down even.

Per set dex hit:
Plate Set - was 20 now 15 = 5 savings!
Bone Set - was 13 now 8 (add 1 for plate gorget) = 5 savings!
Chain+Ring Set - was 10 now 7 (add 1 for plate gorget) = 3 savings!
Ring - 5 (add 1 for plate gorget) = 0 savings

I hope you know I don't have any agenda here. I want pvp to be balanced. I do get the impression that you don't like me/my guild, and I apologize if we've done something to offend you. Since you asked I did some testing with the combat log and hopefully we can just look at those numbers and draw any conclusions from there.
These were done against a 36 AR barbed leather opponent, by the end of the test he had 35 AR.

+10 force long spear, almost knew by the end of this test.


Different +10 force long spear, appears to have suffered some wear and tear by the end



+15 vanq long spear, almost new by the end of the test



It looks like I was a bit off in saying a force spear can do 35 damage. I usually don't wear a leather cap in pvp so that could have made some small difference, but it's irrelevant to what we're talking about. It seemed to me the biggest problem was all the 1-2 damage hits. I can't say that this is a bad thing or not, but if you're the one swinging the weapon it is surely annoying.

From my pvp experience, which as you have pointed out means nothing and isn't written in a peer reviewed article, the weapon damage that the force/power/vanq weapons do against barbed leather sets is in a good place. You can very occasionally get a three/four hit kill while your opponent is para blowed and never able to move. Axes, halberds, war hammers can often do in the 40 damage range. The faster, lower damage weapons don't seem particularly effective unless they're being used to apply poison.

If armor was lower across the board I do think that the 1-2 damage hits would be less common and that would seem better to dexers. I would be in favor of this if power/vanq weapons weren't so common. It still seems to me that it might be good to decrease dex penalties and increase the armor values of metal armors (or colored metals). It might be interesting if you could use a runic hammer to make armor that is GM + defense/guarding etc. The truth is I don't know whether you can do this but I believe you cannot.

If there weren't so many high end weapons out there then I really think decreasing barbed leather armor AR would be a good idea. When I first came to the server I think drop intensities were higher, and at some point were lowered to some degree. There was also mention of something like a clean up britannia program where you could turn in vanqs for plat. But it was just an idea that I think ultimately the staff didn't think would fix that issue appropriately.

I have no idea who your guild is, sorry. And the politician comment was meant to be a joke, but clearly not a good one as it seems people took it personally.

Thanks a ton for testing this.

Where does one get a combat log book on the production shard?

So, we have the data, which is fantastic. But I disagree with the conclusion. According to your logs, a +10 force spear does an average of 9 damage against full barbed. That seems absurdly low to me. (the one-damage hits are a product of the high damage range spear; a mace or axe would not have such swingy damage ranges).

Even comparing the vanquishing spear to the barbed (which is not a valid comparison IMO, since your spear probably costs closer to a set of invulnerably leather armor than a set of barbed), we see an average of 14 and a final range of 1 to 33. So, by definition, your comment about a three-hit kill being possible is incorrect. Even if you roll max damage with the spear (chances of this are 1/18 ^ 6) and min absorption with the armor (chance of this are somewhere in the range of 1/15 ^ 3), you're still doing just 99. This is of course assuming one's enemy is at 100 HPs, which is not a great assumption IMO, since who wouldn't keep a white pot up against a dexer?!

One final data point here. 14 damage per hit with a +10 vanq spear against a 2300 gp barbed leather suit. So in order to do 100 damage, you need to hit an average of 8 times. Of course, you're only hitting 50% of swings... so if you have 120 dex (swing the spear every 1.48 seconds) and your opponent stands still and does nothing because they're laughing at how dumb you are for playing a dexer here, it will still take you 24 seconds to kill them with your +10 vanq spear. If they're just standing there doing nothing. I just don't see how this is balanced.

The kind of theory crafting you are attempting doesn't really translate to an accurate description of actual pvp, nor are many of your assumptions really accurate. Like for instance, few pvpers have 100 hp. I have no idea why you'd make the assumption that one would have a white pot running whenever fighting a dexer as a given either. Also you seem to be suggesting that comparing power/vanq weapons' damage to barbed leather armor isn't a fair comparison - yet that's exactly what people use in pvp. Only a very select few pvpers wear invuln armor, and those are the god-tier Sandros that never die. On the other hand everyone uses power/vanq weapons.

So in your last paragraph you've described something that mathematically may be an accurate statement, but isn't of any real value when describing a pvp situation. You've described how many seconds it would take to kill a 100 hp person by that logbook. Let me use that kind of thinking to describe why dexers have to be nerfed (and all dexers should laugh at mages for trying to play a mage on this server.) A mage regenerates mana at 1 per second in combat. Energy bolts costs 20 mana and do on average 25 damage. Therefore mages only do 125 damage per minute which is considerably less than the 213 damage per minute the vanq spear does. Also, a bandage heals 272 HP per minute and a mage would never be able to compete with that.

Now, it's pretty obvious why that math isn't practical, right?

Also, is it fair to assume that you should get easy kills by equipping a gm spear and just swinging a few times? Most talented pvpers combine weapons, spells, wands, and potions to get kills, as well as secondary abilities like stun punch or poisoning.

Believe it or not the strongest 1v1 template on the server is a dexer template, and the most common one is the tank mage template which uses weapons pretty heavily. If dex skills were so bad I don't think this would be the case.

As far as the OP question...I'd still be in favor of increased ar and/or decreased dex penalties on metal armors or colored metal armors.

None of my math assumed that, so in fact it was not a given.

But, I am curious... why wouldn't someone have a white pot running against a dexer?

Again, not one single piece of math in my post was comparing vanq weapons to invulnerable armor. My point was that a +10 vanq spear costs, I dunno, 10k? And barbed leather costs maybe 2.5k and invulnerable leather suits cost maybe 12k. So if we're assuming one guy is willing to drop 10k on a spear, I feel like we should assume the other is willing to drop 12k on the armor.

Yes, because it's a ridiculous nonsensical example. I told you how long it takes to kill someone, you told me how long it takes to heal mana. I honestly don't know what the point of this was. Apples to apples would be comparing energy bolt cast times and damage, I guess.

You're flailing now. You know I didn't say this, and you can't be dumb enough to believe I think this, so really you're just trying to paint me in a bad light, right?

You jumped into this discussion by saying:

...and then you actually tested, and in over 100 swings, you topped out at 28. Heck, the second time you topped out at 24.

Are you <bleeping> kidding me? You're telling me that MY assumptions aren't really accurate?

If your PvP experience leads you to think that force spears can "easily do 35 against full barbed", I'm not sure it's particularly useful in this discussion. I may be "theory crafting", but at least I'm basing my theories in reality.

Reducing the dex penalties is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. A dexer can have 53 AR as it is with no dex penalty (invulnerable studded). Can get 62 AR with a -5 penalty, which slows down your swing speed a whopping 2.5% For a spear, that's about 3 hundreths of one second per swing. If people are too dumb or cheap to use magic armor in this game, I'm not going to open that can of worms. But IMO, dex penalties and AR are not hindering a dex-oriented character.

This thread has become quite constructive & I don't want to discourage additional discussion on the topic, but without getting into full detail as to why, I generally have to agree with this statement:

That being said, it is important to keep in mind that damage absorption from armor is not necessarily a finalized function. We have plans to make a full review of the damage absorption code & further refine that system as needed if additional changes are deemed necessary. The original modifications to damage absorption from armor which were published quite some time ago (which addressed the issue regarding the abundance of 1 damage hits) were not something that we were officially sold on, it was just the most acceptable solution given the time available to address the situation. The final product for armor absorption would be a complete overhaul & review of the system, just as was done with combat, weapons, & damage applications/modifiers.

This is something that we've discussed recently & may see publish for both tailoring & blacksmithy, however currently only weapons may be created with runic intensities.

.

Mes' assumptions weren't very far off the mark so I don't feel that his testing and well worded responses deserve such a lambasting. A bit too much emotion getting dropped on this topic I guess (not that I've never done it).

The fact that a metal wearing fighter relies much more heavily on bandage cycles and damage application (swing cycles) makes me feel like the heavy dex penalty is something to be addressed. I never really get that whole 'solution for a problem that doesn't exist' type of response. If the problem didn't exist, we would have people fielding a LOT more in metal armor. Not only that but we wouldn't be having this discussion right now, or ever.

The AR levels of the highest quality crafted metal armor, are worse than the mid-range of magic armor which is very very common. Therein lies the problem that we are devising a potential solution for. There is nil point to crafting or selling these high end metal armors, with the resource cost to craft them and the availability of Hardening + magic options, it's pointless. I have a few characters who should by all rights should be rocking plate suits but it's only fun for style, not much for function. I'm already underpowered in dex because I can't be stupid (balanced stats) without getting faceraped by Mind Blast. That and the 20d hit of a full plate suit makes my bandage cycles take 14-15s. Without Meditation, or 100 cure pots in my pack, I feel that's a significant disadvantage to any real tank.

Solution = Platemail negates Mind Blast. Boom, done, now I can rock 25 Int and get the AR I deserve as a big meathead warrior and a bard can't kill me in three fifth circle casts.
Just kidding, it's not really a good solution and I feel like the full review as Ezekiel mentions is the way to go. AR levels could stand to be shifted around and maybe if done enough dex penalty wouldn't be so bad. I personally feel they both could use adjustment though for sure.

Gideon, seriously... please contribute, or leave. You're welcome to give me all sorts of advice via PM or in the Trash Talk forum. This thread is to discuss metal armor.

Blaise - there is a world of difference between "can do 35 easily" and "the most it can possibly do, with the best possible rolls, is 28". Mes was dismissive of my analysis on the basis of his experience, and he proved that his experience didn't really give him a good sense of the game mechanics in that regard.

There are a few issues I have with these statements, so let me tackle them one by one. First... I have no idea how much dex impacts bandage cycles, but a few points of Dex is I believe less than 1 seconds impact on the bandage timer. Second, as I mentioned above, removing the 5 dex penalty from a 62 AR armor set will only result in a swing speed increase of around 2.5%. Again, completely negligible... it's about .03 of one second per swing.

As for your final statement... it is an illogical jump to conclusions. Yes, we have a lack of people fielding in metal. But that does not imply that the dex penalty is what is preventing them from doing so! That is the point of my statement. As I have tried to say, I do not believe the dex penalty is a problem at all - it is very easy to get a very sufficient AR with minimal Dex loss.

My .02 on this... one of the biggest issues with combat here, that no one seems to notice or mention, is how weapon swing speeds are nerfed. This is due to default RunUO code, which determines swing speed as an amount of seconds to a few decimal places. However, back on production shards in 2000-2001, combat was tick-based, and you rounded down to the nearest tick. A tick was .25 seconds. So if the math dictated a swing speed of 1.25-1.49 seconds, you'd be swinging every 1.25 seconds.

Now, this is problematic here because most "fast" weapons at very high dex are in that range right there. Assuming 100 stamina, the swing latency of the following weapons:

War Axe - 1.88
Club - 1.88
Scimitar - 1.74
War Fork - 1.67
Broad Sword - 1.67
Cutlass - 1.67
Spear (2-H) - 1.63
Quarterstaff (2-H) - 1.56
Short Spear (2-H) - 1.5
Kryss - 1.42
Dagger - 1.36
Katana - 1.29

EDIT: However, if we moved to the round-down system, which is accurate to the era, it would look like this:

War Axe - 1.75 (7% faster)
Club - 1.75 (7% faster)
Scimitar - 1.50 (16% faster)
War Fork - 1.50 (11% faster)
Broad Sword - 1.50 (11% faster)
Cutlass - 1.50 (11% faster)
Spear (2-H) - 1.50 (9% faster)
Quarterstaff (2-H) - 1.50 (4% faster)
Short Spear (2-H) - 1.50 (0% faster)
Kryss - 1.25 (14% faster)
Dagger - 1.25 (9% faster)
Katana - 1.25 (3% faster)

Now that's a nice boost to DPS capabilities (about equivalent to removing the dex penalty of 20 from a full plate set) which would have some impact on PvP combat, and would also help the handful of people on this shard making a go at fighting monsters the old fashioned way. And it would be accurate!

In order to rock full plate you have to drop str to counteract mindblast instead of dex. This makes you weaker overall stat wise to someone sporting less dex impacting gear. Less dex impact all around would make plate viable as there is less penalty for the minimal AR bonus.

Stats, healing and swing speed all are impacted for just a little bit of AR. NOT A GOOD TRADE OFF IF YOU ASK ME!

.

I think you were closer to correct when you said armor values from leather were too high. Swing speed, in my opinion, has very little to do with the outcome of pvp battles. Since almost all combat is jousting, the swing speed of weapons typically fall into two categories: those that swing fast enough to interrupt greater heals, and those that do not. A ~3% change in weapon swing speeds would mean very little.

However, about armor ratings, I do suspect that if leather was in the same range (12-16?) that it was during UO:R, there would be much fewer 1-5 damage hits. Those hits happen across the board even from halberds and war hammers. I don't really remember those hits being commonplace in UO:R.

Although this may be irrelevant to the OP, I'm curious what it is you envision that dex combat skills should be like? And in what way you don't find them already competitive? And do you have some anecdote to offer so I can relate? The townie that wears a death robe and carries 25 bandages and a GM double axe is a very amateur play style, and I think most would agree that pvp should be designed to allow for a higher skill ceiling than that.

For PvP, sure, the AR stuff would probably have more impact. Do note the percentages in my prior post though - we're talking about a swing speed increase of 0% to 16%, depending on weapon type and stamina at a given moment. So maybe 8% on average.

I brought this up because (a) I noticed it, and (b) it's a potential accuracy improvement and (c) I wanted to put the proposed dex penalty removal in perspective. That is, for (c), removing the dex penalty on most armors would not change things as much as the (era accurate) change I suggest instead.

The Leather AR is a wholly separate issue, agreed.

If you're asking me what I think the dex combat skills should be like... the swing speed stuff, and a fix to the leather AR if it is indeed inaccurate right now, would make a welcome improvement in the viability of 100-dex characters of all types. Beyond that, I don't really know what to say. I tend to take a discrete, mechanical approach to this stuff rather than a top-down approach.

BTW, per your last post, what is the current best 1v1 template?

The one that is identical to your opponent. There really is no dominant template.

I would have said poison dexer with magery for extra healing/utility. Like this guy http://www.uorenaissance.com/?page=m_player&id=14754

He uses poisoned warforks and long spears, he throws purple potions, and he stays potted up with whites and blues. When he has to he can cast greater heal or anything else but he can't regen mana quickly.

That was my assumption as well. Though it kills me to see Poisoning on a fighting character; I'd much rather have the 100 points and carry 3 or 4 poisoned copies of each weapon.

Or go with 90 Margery/80 resist and 30 poisoning. At 90 Margery you'll have no issues using Gheal when you want as well as any other spell you might need as a dexxer. At 30 poison the damage only does 4 per tick which is the same as the poison spell coming from a Mage without the poisoning skill. However, at 30 poison you'll be using lesser poison which gives you 18 poison charges per application, and IMO I only want the poison to prevent my opponent from getting heals off. With tht many charges they can burn through cure pots quickly and if you're wielding a high end magic weapon compiled with explo pots..you're looking at a serious offensive and defensive machine. I don't like giving pvp advice because I like my ideas and they work, but IMO a highly effective dexxer I would use would look as such:

Fencing/swords
Tactics
Anatomy
Healing
Meditation
90 Margery
80 resist
30 poison

I promise you 80 resist will hardly affect you. I know this because I roll with it on a lot of my chars and I smash everyone. The plus side to swords is if you encounter a Mage you can use an axe to get a concussion blow, then switch to your poison vanq katana and start ripping into him and throwing pots. Fencing is nice to be able to switch to long spears for runners because of para blow and you can also throw pots on the run. Also, I wouldn't see a problem wearing a suit of barbed leather armor with that template even as a dexxer. You would suffer 0 med regen loss, you can apply reactive armor against another dexxer, as well as arch protection which gives an additional 11 armor I believe? Putting you around 40+ ar. To top it off, if you keep yourself juiced up on str/dex pots, with 90/90/45 or even 90/80/55 stats, mindblast will not be nearly as effective as it would against a true pure dexxer AND you could also use mindblast against other dexxer or mages. Just make sure to conserve your mana wisely. There's so much you can do with that template or a similar one, but swing speed is not the issue. The issue is how skillful you are and how creative you can be or not. =\

Giving away trade secrets sir... Trade secrets... Tsk Tsk.

I figured one out of who knows how many isn't a big deal. Anything to get people on the field, or better..

TRUTH