Spell Damage Delay

This ain't no democracy. Our devs are professional folks and great game designers. Let their word be final.

This ain't no democracy. Our devs are professional folks and great game designers. Let their word be final.

This ain't no democracy. Our devs are professional folks and great game designers. Let their word be final.

I want to weigh in here.

I spent the majority of my time on Napa during UO:R 5x duelling with friends. We would also log over to Test Center and 5x with the asians (Tomoyaki!). Needless to say, we became extremely familiar with the spell timings. It was imperative to know where you could fit a GHeal cast with respect to being hit with various spells in succession. While I didn't do as much field combat as some of my peers, I did become one of the better 5x duelists on UO in that time period.

Obviously the timings here can't be exactly like they were on OSI. Perhaps, even, they shouldn't be. The issue that this thread addresses, though, is both valid and has present/future impact on people who have a long-held passion for one aspect of this game. Duelists and serious PvPers resent that this thread has not driven change.

I would also like to take a moment to bluntly point out that Blaise has no place in this conversation. These changes do not impact the lives of PvMers and for them to fight on this issue is a fairly straight-forward troll. The community here is small enough for everyone to know who the affected players are.

Please make this change.

this guy was in QOP. I used to duel him all day on test center during UOR on wrong roof.

and to say something on topic...I still think spell recovery is a little too long. I also think mana regen at 100int 100med seems just a tad slow. I have been thinking it forever but it was die by the fly guy that mentioned it during a fight the other night and kind of confirmed what I had been feeling. As far as spell damage delays...the only ones that seem off to me are fireball/lightning (but I have heard others say they felt lightning was very late to deal damage as it is here).

I would like to point out that Liberation is completely butt-hurt and seems intent on putting this thread in trash talk. Please, carry on with your insults, and I'll be certain to return the favor. You have no place in this shard, if you cannot accept that other players can have interest in PvP mechanics even when it is not the ONLY portion of Ultima Online they enjoy or dabble in. Please save your elitist boring snorefest 5x duelling bullshit for hybrid or whatever bullshit mage duel shard you came from.

There happens to be something going on here that I am in favor of regarding PvP. They are NOT trying to make the same old shard. There are plenty of those and there really doesn't need to be another 5x mage duel pit.

Is it perfect yet? Hell no, that's obvious. Is it being worked on? Most definitely. As has been said, make some suggestions with valid reasons to test them and there will likely be changes put on test to play with. Saying "this is how I remember it so make it this way" is not going to make this the Mage Supremecy shard all the duelling elitists wish it to be. Balance is not going to be achieved by copying history.

I also feel that lightning and maybe fireball could stand to be faster on damage application. It makes sense in their function/level but I think the cast recovery duration is a better place to start as far as what would be best to test. Yes, this is my opinion based on what little combat I actually do with magery. If you don't like it, ignore it and continue droning on and on about how you used do things.

PS: Magery is not a combat skill.

Hold on here. You resurrected a dead thread just to puff up your chest and put down Blaise? To help you understand the logic of the situation, here's a couple of examples:

Illogical: Liberation claims he's a l33t PVPer, so we should all bow down and worship at his feet.
Logical: Blaise has a long, documented track record of helping to shape this shard, so we should evaluate his arguments based on their merits.

Illogical: Blaise hasn't devoted his UO life solely to PVP, so he's unqualified to speak on the subject.
Logical: Liberation hasn't been here for 2 weeks and already he's bitching about mechanics, so perhaps we should discount his comments.

If you are unable to come up with a cogent argument, then perhaps you should stick to trash talk or refrain from posting.

I dunno, I think Lib hit the nail on the head here. I don't think he was saying he was a god at pvp, just that he enjoys it.

And one thing I can honestly say is should things stay the way they are... Pvper joins shard, macros char, realizes the mechanic, pvper leaves shard. (Happened with 5 of the people I have tried to bring over)

I mean thats fine if you don't want a pvp shard, but don't offer balanced pvp in your description, when you think balanace is cut everything in half, totally remove other things and delay it.

But I guess everyone already knows how I feel and I'm just complaining and should shut up and fall in line.

Spell resolution feels pretty right to me. That is, the time it takes your spell to hit your target after you cast it.
What does feel a bit off to me is spell recovery, particularly on lower cast time and lower circle spells. It's not possible to chain together fast spells to disrupt someone or keep him off his feet.

There isn't nearly enough love for 5x dueling here and that's really the only form of dueling I enjoyed back in the day.

I'd like to add a comment about 5x dueling and the amount of scoffing I've seen whenever dueling is mentioned in IRC or the forums.

It's a great thing. It's fun and its challenging and it's competitive, in my opinion. I'm not saying it's for everyone. There's so much in this game that isn't for everyone and we can all pick the parts we want to do for the most part. What's fantastic about this and the considerations that have been requested about changes that would effect dueling and spell casting balance is that it will have no real effect on other playstyles. These changes will almost solely effect mage vs mage combat and noone else needs to look at this as some kind of incoming nerf to their playstyle.

Think it's boring and skill-less that every mage you see just casts explosion and energy bolt? These changes can raise that skill cap and reward more skillful players without making dexers feel more underpowered.

I also don't appreciate the lack of support for the duelist playstyle. It's not right for Liberation to say Blaise has no say in this, and it's not right for anyone else to say that dueling isn't a legitimate way to play the game. Let's just end all of that talk right here so that Tater's thread is not derailed to trash talk. Please put any related replies in a separate thread.

I think Tater's a great pvper. And I think that Liberation is too (just based on name dropping Tomoyaki tells me that he knows that scene.) I think if they want to play the server and they want to see a more fun pvp experience everyone should hear them out, especially the admins.

I personally know nothing about PvP, but I'm adding to this thread to say that Mes has the right idea. Let's all keep a level head, keep it civil, and remember that everyone here wants the same thing: the see this shard become a more and more excellent place for folks to enjoy that which is UO

Ultimately, we are all on the same team here!

Completely agree. I have nothing against duelling per se, but I have everything against 'the ultimate template'. There never should be one and no single build should dominate in 1v1 or groups, ever. That to me is balance. If all of a sudden everyone is rocking Stun Mages (remember Beta? I do) because they are practically impossible to kill, that's a huge friggen problem.

Admittedly, I don't know much about 5x duelling, but unless I'm mistaken, everyone is running the exact same loadout and you're just sparring for spell timing and waiting for the opponent to slip. If I'm mistaken, feel free to correct me. However, this sounds ultra-boring to me, if there's only one template involved.

There is so much involved in combat in UO that finding balance without pulling the rug out from under one template or another is going to be the greatest challenge here. Making Magery the dominant combat skill that it was never designed to be, is not the answer in my opinion. Players made Magery a combat skill, not developers. It is at it's core, a supplement to all other skills. Any changes that make it easier for a Mage to win fights with 0 combat skills, must be handled with extreme caution.

Let's get some changes going on test and flesh out the duelling pit by Chaos a bit more with vanqs/invulns and stuff. I would be happy to spend some time learning there or on live with any players willing to actually share and teach instead of cry and preach.

While I have spent little time in the pvp scene here so far, which I plan to expand so have fun killing me, I agree with tater's issue with spell delay and I have noticed it in what I have done so far. I am an advocate of the change as I think it presents a better pvp scene for the now and future. Would definitely want to check this out on the test first though. When it comes down it, it doesn't change a whole lot but does improve the likelihood of dueling and overall pvp which in my eyes would be a good thing long term.

I don't agree with some of what Blaise is saying and I don't agree with what some of the advocates are saying.
However saying Blaise has no place in this conversation is extremely ignorant in my opinion as this is not a trash talk thread so both be off with it here and make this more constructive.

I guess you could describe it as something like sparring for spell timing and waiting for the opponent to slip up, but not slipping up is a big part of what we think of as skill.
There are a lot of different techniques and combos that you can use, and those add an element of skill to it. There's also a lot of need for timing and good reflexes.
Even if it sounds boring to you, 5x dueling is the only kind of dueling I enjoy.

I don't really like this "magery is not a combat skill" argument. For a bunch of reasons.
First off, you're right, it's not JUST a combat skill. It's in misc because it has many different uses one of them being combat.
Second, if it wasn't intended for combat it wouldn't have damage dealing abilities.
Third, the fact that you see mage type mobs on the front lines in orc forts and such reflects dev intent that mages be fit for combat.
And finally, there are no "combat skills". There are combat ratings which determine your chances to hit or be hit with weapons. I don't see anatomy in combat skills, why does it let players do more damage?

Mages quite obviously have a place on the battlefield. In fact, most of the magery spells do various offensive things to other players. The idea that it's just a support skill is silly, if that were true there would be less skills like harm and more spells like create food. I do agree that it's a vital skill that everyone should have, but it's not simply a support skill.
The fact that it's so useful is offset by some of the downsides that come with magery like the threat of interruption, having to worry about regs, having to worry about running out of mana, not being able to wear heavy armor, and so on.

Furthermore, what I have been asking for won't make it easier for a mage to win without combat skills. I've asked for spell recovery to be a little tighter on lower level spells, and that really won't have much effect on anything other than mage 5 fights. It will still be more economical (and safer due to the threat of interruption) to kill dexers with EB or MB.

I don't think placement of NPC mages has anything to do with Magery being designed as a supplemental skill in any way. Yes, I think it should be a primary combat skill, but what is being suggested is that it be configured to be suited for what doesn't exist here apparently, 5x duels.

The fact that players made a duelling system centered completely around Magery is exactly like Call of Duty players making unique game types (Michael Meyers anyone?) within the bounds of the game's Player Matches. The rules are set by the players, not the system. One person gets to use a knife while everyone else gets to run. The last person alive that isn't playing Mike, gets to draw their knife and have it out with the end guy. It's a hard analogy to see, but hopefully you understand that '5x duels' are a player designed sport centered around a supplemental skill. Yes it has the ability to damage and kill. So does Poisoning but we don't have Nox Duels.

If the combat is really about knowing your timing and when to do what. You've basically agreed with me on that and the biggest problem here is that the vast majority of 5x duellers just flat out are not used to the timing here, which as I understand it, is actually accurate to the era. Perhaps some adjustments are in order but I'm still inclined to believe the recovery delay is a better place to start than flat out dropping the spell damage delay accross the board.

If Fast Casting ebolts is what you're truly after, then I'll never be in support of that as I always found it to be a blaringly obvious broken mechanic. Spell casting should have a delay, mages should have a recovery time to cast again, especially at higher levels of spell and big damage spells should not have near instant damage. Granted, lots of this is based on opinion, but I think what we need to do is just get things on test and take small steps. The damage delay was never 0.5s across the board here, only for a few spells quite some time back now. At best, adjusting recovery delay and maybe dropping damage delay on a handful of low-end spells would be best for testing.

Oh wait, on second thought, I'm down for dropping the spell recovery delay and damage delay as long as I can cycle shots on my Heavy Xbow at 3s instead of nearly 10s and give me insta-hit with it whenever I equip.
Deal?

Well this isnt exactly a player designed concept though. Thats part of the problem. The devs on live specifically designed magery in such a way that certain spells could counter each other or had great synergy. We've lost a bit of that on UOR, whether it is because of the spell damage delay, or cast recovery, or mana regen, or whatever reason, its just a bit off.

I personally challenge any player or admin on the server to try to kill me with magery only. I will defend with only magery and I am completely confident that I will not lose. It should be possible for me to lose in this situation, in my opinion. What made mage 5 duels such a popular duel is it was a well balanaced system and template or equipment would not determine the outcome.

What kept that duel with tater from being fun the other day was we both knew the outcome beforehand. Mace would drain my stamina and i would be stuck in place until i died. When its magery vs magery a balance can be struck and a player can win because of experience / skill / timing. We cant really do that right now because the low level spells are very ineffective, in my opinion.

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but the only equipment allowed in a 5x would be reagents and potions, no? The 5x is a reference to the GM skills employed in the duel and everyone in said duels ran the exact same thing, right?
As I said, I can see the logic behind some lower level spells having decreased delay to damage and the recovery being altered, that makes total sense. The 5x concept is entirely player designed or there would not be a 700point skill cap, it would be 500. Developers definitely made spells to be countered by the appropriate opposing or interrupting spell. That's certainly not in question here. I'm not saying that 5x is an invalid form of testing magery skills or experience, just that UO was not designed to be a 5x duelling pit, that is something the players came up with to see 'who's best at spell timing'. It's much like saying '1v1 me, pistols only" in CoD. You're deciding the template and loadout and seeing who's getting the jump on who. Not invalid, just player designed, and should not be the basis for what decides balance in the field. The field has all of the variety that 5x duellers ignore completely to suit their desires to duel. That variety will be imbalanced if Magery is made OP to suit the 5x style.

I want to see change and I want to see more happy PvPers as well. I don't want to see you run up on a Mage, dump mana for the kill while I whiff 3 times with my vanq weapon on a 7x character and get corpsed because you could stack explo with eb and mindblast/poison before I could get 3 swing attempts in.

I don't think you would see any effect in mage vs dexxer, for example any fight you had before January on this server. What is in question is the ability to interrupt another mage while casting spells, as apposed to watching another person use all his mana while you cast one gheal spell.

Harm

Even my 35 Int fighter can do that, more than once, with 0 Med.

I understand you are frustrated and desire change, but your exaggerations do not help the point, at all. It will only lead to more exaggeration and/or sarcstic responses.

For the record, every fight I had before January on this server involved 5 dexxers swinging on a single mage who mini-heal walked away(minor exaggeration), so I don't know wtf that is even supposed to mean. If it's a reference to spell damage delay, you are off base in that the damage delay was not changed across the board here, ever. I also got PKed in Beta by stun mages running up, punching me, dumping all their mana and making off with my goods.

I'm not sure if you read what I wrote, but nothing was exaggerated or sarcastic about my previous post. So you can stay on topic about the mechanic.

What it means is prior to January these delays were what we are lobbying for today. These timers were only implemented some time around January-February.