I find the situation with UO kind of funny. They dropped their alliance with us because your group was threatening to grief them out of the game. And here they are, now not allied with us, and you guys are still shitting on them until they quit. That's why you don't negotiate with terrorists. Their guild is in absolute tatters now, many of their members have either quit or defected. Anyway, I don't think we pretend to be a convent of nuns, but we do have rules about not shitting on the server too hard. I don't understand why people get so bent out of shape about resist event shenanigans. I mean honestly, there are bandages and ressers there because it's accepted that people will die at resist sessions. But for some reason, if you toss a purple pot at a group of people with no loot who are expecting to die anyway, you're somehow Hitler. And yeah, the game would be boring as hell without people who are responsible for mischief. The difference between us and you is that we take care not to shit on people too hard. We don't dry loot newbies, etc, and when spawning guilds and pve people say "hey take it easy on us" we usually do. Your group also raids spawns and PKs in general differently than we do - after we raid once we're generally done. If a spawn gets raided by you guys, they mas as well quit because you will be back every 5 minutes and then you'll take the champ when it's done. Compare that to the behavior of your group. You guys are raiding spawns, dry looting people, killing pets, and then when they start saying that they're quitting the game you guys are telling them that's what they get for being tamers/being friends with TT one time/whatever you can come up with to justify your behavior.
I don't think staff issues warnings for running around with recall precasted, so I think you'll be able to continue "griefing" indefinitely at this rate.
Hi, i'm Lightshade. I am the Guildmaster of the Knights of Sosaria and here's my view on your points above: First off, none of the choices reflect my views in any way. 1: Prohibit criminal aggressors from using gates... I think quite the opposite of this...if someone wants to tuck tail and run away, let them....and let them be known for it. To that end, I think that anyone should be able to recall/gate away at anytime, regardless of aggressor flag. What we have currently does not even make sense from a storyline perspective and it certainly does not fit the "sandbox" mold. 2: Implement holy light scrolls No, it would destroy pvp. Worst idea ever. 3: Allow characters with forensic eval to track PKs all over the map. Not necessary. Work together with other anti-pks. Train. Polish skills. Then kill. 4: Make red characters vulnerable to slayers. Personally, I have gone red killing blues who have had criminal timers timeout and thought the were free of the reckoning. Entirely too many reasons why this is a bad idea. 5: Increase stat loss for pks. Not necessary in any way and would only encourage blue pk'ing. 6: Make mercenary NPCs considerably stronger and unhireable by red characters. Not a good idea as it would skew many other things. 7: Don't change anything I love PKs and I think this would be a better server if we had more of them. This is not a fair choice in any way and shows considerable bias. Just because you think things are fine as they are, does not mean you like pks and want more of them. Let us at least try to be fair. Organization is the counter to PKs. It is as simple as that.
The problem is all the good pvpers are the reds, I don't think there's a single decent pvper out there without one. As for going unchecked, we kill the TB reds any chance we get which lately I'd say we score at least one of them a day (since they're never in stat this does nothing really, save for maybe break their spirit a bit). Even erza runs with crooks, a well known red, so nobody has clean hands on this matter. Also, if you only recognize red and blue and not the groups specifically, you're going to find yourselves right in between two large groups of pvpers, who wold both rather kill each other but I'm sure would kill you if engaged nonetheless.
First of, KoS does lots of things. To imply that our focus is hunting pks would be to ignore everything else that we do. Secondly, nearly every pk you mentioned plays during "off" times for our guild. RRG, specifically, wont even leave their keep until their blue tracker scouts the area to tell them that there is only their hapless victim to worry about. Add that to them never being online when the majority of us are online and you end up with a big *shrug* from me. Nothing to be done. Thirdly, my house in real life was destroyed by a tornado and the suggestion that I need to have done more during that time is absurd. Fourthly, its absurd because the only problem is a lack of preparation and organization by the blues. The PKs aren't the problem They're just a "monster" with advanced AI. Once everyone approaches them like that and tries to figure out how to beat them, they fall like any other "monster". Hell, I remember happening upon an idoc where two of the best pks were harrying some blues. It was like 2 vs. 10 with the pks in the minority...yet they were slowly picking the blues off. I joined the blues. I watched them running off giving chase. I yelled at them to stick together. They didnt listen. More died. Finally, I got them all to stop running off half-cocked and got them to stick together and listen. I explained to them how certain spells punch through resist effectively. I had them all stand in a line (firing squad), had them pre cast, and had them setup a target nearest red hot key. Soon as the red ran in to get them to give chase again...he fell off his horse and took a dirt nap. Instant death. PK's are NOT the problem. Ignorance, a lack of training, and poor communication is the problem. Blues as a whole need to stop blaming PK's for their unwillingness to get smarter or change anything at all about how they do anything. It makes good blues like us look bad and frankly, its embarassing.
KoS has had a public Ventrilo server for years. I know of MANY people fighting back. We also utilize UOAM. One of my favorite PK kills was only possible because of it. I had lost the PK. One of our guildmates saw his gate and hopped it. It went to Moonglow. We were both in Ventrilo and on UOAM. Guildie was chasing the red across the isle of Moonglow. I looked on UOAM and recalled in well ahead of him. Pre-casted and watched UOAM. On Ventrilo I said "2....1.........DROP" just as he appeared on screen. It was a quick death. My character was a bard with hiding. Again, need to organize the blues...not handicap the reds. http://uorforum.com/threads/judas-succumbs-to-a-bardic-lullaby.9428/
Just to clarify things: Like you Kane, Crooks was actually one of the first persons here who would teach me how to pvp, and some basic mechanics about it. I still remember one of your posts http://uorforum.com/threads/anyone-willing-to-teach.7365/ and also the video Pill posted a while ago featuring you and crooks. I ended up fighting with him a lot, since there was always a lot to learn, and we ended up as friends. Unlike you, who backstabbed him, i could not find any bad words for that guy ever. But besides these facts i will still end up fighting him and tNl reds whenever i am around in dungeons, saving innocents from them, or trying to help allies who pm me, because these are the things that ive decided to do for the past few months and the future. If you see us rolling together, then its either for Order/Chaos fights, or bigger group fights, which people would defenitly describe as pvp.
Well this is part of the problem. You're so rash you imagine I literally disagree with everything you say 100% of the time. Half the things you are arguing I didn't even come here to argue about. I came here to correct napo, and point out the hypocrisy of the whole champ spawn thing. I don't think TT are indiscriminate and rampant PKers, I was pointing out that Blaise and I don't shit on newbs and are even less active than some people in TT. I don't disagree that IRC is a shitshow on both sides; I don't enjoy the sheer toxic drama this shard produces, which is why I don't really post on forums and try to stay light-hearted in IRC. I'm not disputing that Bart and fekk aren't saintly UO players, or that TT never does anything nice. I'm not here to debate your PvP prowess or tactics, Bart's PK legacy, or whether it's SL's fault this shard doesn't have a very active PvP community (the answer is no). The thread has drifted well off-topic as it is. But I will clarify for you why TT/SL often finds itself so maligned, and why I feel some of TT's complaints are so hypocritical. You can't claim to not have done similar things, because you have. You've done it to guilds and groups because you see them as being associated with your enemies. I've even seen you do this to individual players just because they were friendly with people you hate. You've PK'd players and stomped out pets, not because they were enemies, or factioners, or big bad PKs, but because they associated with the wrong crowd. You personally were doing this even shortly after I arrived on the shard last fall. You decided Gnarl was a "scumbag," and since Mont, a relatively new player, was friends with him, she became fair game for griefing in your rulebook. You killed her and her pets and dry looted her multiple times and made it explicit to her that this was happening because of Gnarl. And my memory may be a bit fuzzy, but I'm pretty sure you also dry looted some newbie's house because he was friends with ebola. I fully believe you don't go out griefing random newbies and strangers. But it's not as strong of a statement as you think. This shard does not have a huge population. There aren't many strange players here, and the ones that are won't be strange for very long. At some point they'll start branching out and probably hanging around with O^S/CoM PvMers, or maybe in what you call the "TB mumble," which is a public mumble mostly filled with players who aren't PvP-oriented. You'll see them affiliating with people you don't like, and then PK them and and their pets. If they're associated with us, you'll tell them "Send Bart my regards." You guys think certain players are master manipulators of public opinion, and if it were actually true, you couldn't do a much better job of driving players to their side. They sour quickly on TT/SL far better than any alleged propaganda can do. Then they'll start badmouthing or harassing you in-game, or maybe join a non-SL faction for a small period despite not really being into PvP, and you'll retroactively classify them as part of the great anti-SL pantheon of TB, CoM, O^S, PwN, or whoever, even though they weren't really your enemies -- at least at one point. I've watched it happen. If you go and blow up public resist events because it's hosted by someone you dislike, you can't be surprised when a bunch of players at that event, who had no prior opinion of you, suddenly decide to view your guild as bad guys. You think it's not a big deal because they didn't lose loot. Let's set aside the fact that this isn't the most thick-skinned player base. You can kill some AFK macroer using a restock agent at a bank and he won't really lose any loot too, but they're likely to be more pissed off than simply getting PK'd and looted -- especially if you did it late at night and they don't check their client until afternoon. That's a lot of wasted time. It's pretty much what you're doing when you wreck resist events at night, only it's not a single character, it's hundreds. Some newb leaves his char there, goes to sleep, you kill everyone, he gets back on late the next day and sees he's been dead for 16 hours. And when he asks "Why?" the only justification you can give is "Blaise." It's the same thing with the public harrower and denying people plat, or other events that TT/SL or someone in that group interferes with. The justification really doesn't even matter here. If you come in and act badly on a big platform in front of a huge fraction of the population, you should not be surprised they come to view you as bad players. There are some really all-around well-liked players here who view TT/SL negatively. So you have all this collateral damage with people, who strictly speaking, should not be your enemies. And they'll tell others just how mean you are: You killed them because they hung out with this crowd or that crowd, because they were at this event, because you behaved badly at this other event, etc. And now a lot of people, including ones who've never interacted with you, see you as a bad group. Yet TT continues to be mystified they're not seen as white knights for doing this nice act or killing this group of bad guys. Apparently, it's all amazing PR skills and Jedi mind tricks. A set of fresh faces come here and you're willing to align with them because, as you wrote, "there are so many people polarized against us." Ironically, they get shit on for hooking up with the "wrong people," and not just by PKs. A significant amount of the player base, not even PvPers, want nothing to do with them. They get shunned, griefed and ostracized, and have to call off the alliance. And you and napo are blown away people could be so hostile to them just for playing with you. Come on dude. The truth is "good guys" and "bad guys" is a bunch of crap, and it would be best to dispense with the notion all together. But the flack TT receives from some people here is understandable, more than some of you care to admit.
People talk about forming an anti-pk guild. It is very boring to play as anti-pks. Asking for PvMers to form an anti-pk guild makes no sense. PvMers don't want to PvP. To ask them to train up PvP to beat the veterans( that have played for years or decades) is not realistic. That's hundreds and hundreds of hours. The PVMers will just end up quitting, and the server becomes another shard with only pks around.
Speaking of rash, why did you assume I had no reason to think Gnarl was scummy? He was acting like he was friends with us and then trying to use incognito reds to gank us with you and crooks (and then denying it). I don't have any problem with Montaron and never did - we did eventually begin attacking her because she was attacking us on reds. Turnabout is fair play in this case. Despite this she seemed to still remain friends with some SL members and I had no problem with that nor any issue being cordial with her when she would PM me. EDIT: there was actually a specific encounter that soured me on Gnarl - he was 'friends' with one of my guildmates and then ganked this person with bart and gen and you at titans while incognito hoping to not be found out. Then they offered a res just to res kill and tried to kill the pets (and of course looted.) This guildmate was in blaise's mumble and everyone was friendly with them a short time prior so they felt pretty wounded to be ganked so hard later that evening. There were situations prior to this but this was the time I made up my mind that I'd go after him when we spotted him. There was a guy running with Ebola one night and fighting us and he had a key on him. We ran up in his small house and started to loot. It was garbage and we took nothing. Ebola got on IRC and made a big fuss about how we were harming new players - despite us taking nothing and the player fighting us with Ebola that night. I get that it's what you want to believe and it's your perception - but I don't attack people or label then enemies for logging into Blaise's mumble or for being in O^S or TnT or whatever. Even though I often will refer to O^S as an enemy guild because many TB and Minax people have or do put their tamers in this guild, there are plenty of players that aren't faction affiliated in these guilds and plenty that have been at times and I've no problem at all with them (Like Lutz, Peace, or CaptainMorgan for example. Or ones that as far as I know don't try to get involved in pvp at all like Basoosh or Avery.) So you'll have to be more specific about non pvpers we're killing and saying "send bart my regards." I just plain disagree. I think getting killed with your equipment on and looted is much worse than being killed while afk gaining a skill. Even if they didn't look at the character again for 16 hours as you have suggested. This isn't about denying people plat. Noone in SL plays thieves or tries to get plat at the end of a harrower from people. Certainly people in the other factions do. The idea of taking over a harrower is an attempt to play out the end game design for the champ spawn/harrower system. Guilds fighting over the limited rewards of that system - combat that is reds vs blues or some other configuration with field spells and such. I guess I've completely failed to explain our methods to you somehow. We do pk people just to pk them. We roll in, drop on them, res them and move them on their way. Just classic style, thrill-of-the-hunt pking. Because TT has always been a PK guild and that's what pks do. What I'm trying to convey to you is we don't go out of our way to make it worse on random people or non combat players. We might just not attack them at all if they're in this category. We'll make sure not to kill them twice in a short period of time. We're not trying to make it impossible for them to farm or leave town. We'd much rather be fighting consenting players. And if those people in enemy factions are on their tamers or blues then we're more likely to loot them. And this about being mystified we aren't viewed as white knights- didn't I make it pretty clear in my post that we pk and it's not a nice thing to do? I'm not so deluded that I think I should be thanked for attacking people. All I'm saying is we set a line for ourselves and said "ok I don't want to run people off, ok I don't want to discourage someone from farming or building up, ok I don't need this person's stuff as much as they do." It doesn't make us good guys. But it does make us less cutthroat than some others. This scenario you just described is almost exactly the way you perceived our relationship with Gnarl and Montaron. That Gnarl was perceived an enemy and Montaron was somehow being punished for being friends with him. Earlier in the post it was wrong to hate someone for this but now it's so obvious to hate them it doesn't even deserve an explanation, just a "Come on dude." But despite your "come on dude" I'm going to continue to say it was wrong for your group to try to run off an entire guild for doing a couple champ spawns with us. And to demonstrate how we're more reasonable than you (your faction, group, and friends): Some people in [UO] had characters in CoM, or TnL, or wanted to be in TB. Sometimes they invited members of O^S to their champ spawns and we never had an issue with them for this. It was enough reason for you to try to run them off the shard - but we respected their right to be friends with anyone and to choose their own side in factions and to do spawns with an associate with people that viewed us as enemies. I agree. There aren't good guys and bad guys. Just guys. And let's be honest, westra, she's quite nice at all times.
That was where I was going that post earlier, obviously. Additionally, nearly everyone is absolutely terrible at identifying who is who. They jump to conclusions based on the smallest fragments of circumstantial evidence and then it snowballs. Add to this people obscuring who is who with same naming, or intentionally misleading people as to who is who with name copycatting (i.e. T-T) or just telling people x character is y person when they know damn well it isn't. It is no wonder why so few people have even the slightest idea what is really happening.
I don't care what the reason is for hating Gnarl. The point is you targeted Mont because she was friends with Gnarl. You didn't "attack her," you griefed her when she was farming on her bard and tamer, killed her pets, and explicitly told her it was because of her friendship with Gnarl. Do you really not remember doing anything like that? You didn't "eventually" start attacking her down the road, you started doing it the week you began hating Gnarl. She wasn't even a PvPer and had no PvP characters at the time. I am aware she later became friends with some SL. It's irrelevant to my point about your tactic. I'm really mad at X for doing this, and well he is friends with Y, so I'll get back at X by fucking with Y. I remember thinking at the time that it was really vindictive. What you did is effectively deny some people plat, and you did in front of a very large crowd. It may not have been your goal, but it's about how a significant fraction of the shard present will perceive the act. People see what they see. That you don't think wasting afk training hours is a big deal doesn't matter. I honestly don't really care either. But it's not what you think is reasonable, it's what other people think is reasonable. You said people are polarized against you, and I'm telling you this is part of the reason. Yeah dude, that's my point. That you guys operated similarly with your enemies and their friends, and now that the shoe is on the other foot, it's suddenly shitty behavior. That's why I called it ironic. I wasn't even apart of the whole debacle with UO, I'm just surprised that any of you were surprised this would happen. Oh, and for like the millionth time, and I told your guildmate this in PMs way back when it happened, I was not involved at all. I was dueling crooks when your guildmate got PK'd. I showed up after the fact in T2A on Pax because they said they were fighting LesClaypools who showed up. I went back afterwards to the arena to duel crooks, and you came in for a misguided revenge gank but ended up just killing crooks (who I believe was in SL) and his llama and then dry looting him, even though he had nothing to do with it either. Fun fact: That's also when he started hating SL. Anyways, I didn't post to say you guys were super villians ruining the shard. I know you guys do nice things here and there. You gave me 100k when I started the shard. I'm just trying to give TT some outsider perspective. We're just talking past each other now at this point, so I'm gonna give it a rest.
Mes, you are a slippery one. I'd even go so far as to say you're a little Satan, because you are fully aware of the webs you are weaving. Let me clarify what happened with UO as briefly as possible. Mes, you know this, but many in the audience do not. UO idoc'ed on another server and came here to do the same. They ran against my guild which was already established. We had stronger PVPers and they lost more battles than they won but they wanted to continue idoc'ing so took the only option they thought was available to do so: they formed an alliance with TT. They called you guys in to PVP for them. Their enemies became your enemies but, and is this so strange? Your enemies also became their enemies. They weren't "punished for being friends with you" as you would like everyone to believe. They happily fought with you against CoM and my group. Some of their members officially joined SL/TT and you guys did PvM together as well. I warned Bixby before your alliance was fully in effect that his guild would inherit your enemies. It was not a threat, as he probably took it, it was a statement of cause and effect. I thought UO were mostly all cool dudes and I didn't think he or his members were aware of just how deep the hate, grudges, and general toxicity go on this server in regards to factions. Just as CoM/TB/OS/PwN and others seem to be forever damned to the eternal faction grudge matches with TT/SL, now so too is UO. They made that choice, it was not thrust on them. The real issue here is all the toxic hate, drama, and childish grudges. On the server I came from all I did was faction, and I know it doesn't have to be this way - you can have bitter enemies in game but still be civil and polite. I do not believe that is possible on this server. Too much has been said and done (and continues to) that, in my opinion, can all be traced back to TT. What you're seeing now is a reaping of what was sowed for years and years. If I was king, I would end this shit at the source. I'd have the cancer removed in a week. You guys should appreciate every day you play here just how restrained and long suffering Telamon is to allow some of you to play here (and no, I'm not talking exclusively about TT).
Nah. We had certainly pked her when she was playing a male character named Montaron - and not looted and had no clue who she was. I am telling you I don't remember ever attacking her intentionally until she was trying to go red and running around with some greys/reds and attacked me. The tactic you're referring to about attacking Y to get to X - just not really true. Right and I'm telling you that you guys did that to UO but I didn't do that to Montaron. I still don't care about Montaron and wouldn't go out of my way to attack her. DrSassy is friends with bart and met him in real life. I never went after him despite this knowledge. Which is contrary to how you say I operate. He was even welcomed on our voice server and invited to do things with us and treated as family. I still have nothing against him even now. He seems like a nice guy. Did you not know that or are you cherry picking? Ah crooks was never within our group. I can't stop someone from joining the faction stone. We wanted crooks to join other factions because we were already a dominant force and not interested in recruiting. In the event you're talking about - it's really not pertinent whether you were there at the start or the end. The topic is about Gnarl and it's an explanation of why I soured on him.
