Griefing

I have a really mixed feelings about word "griefing" in context of UOR.
I don't think of stealing or house looting as griefing because both are preventable.

However, simply coming on a PvP-ready red and killing PvM chars in a dungeon does feel like griefing to me.
Because with 700 skillcap they can't fight back even if they are actually good, their only option is to run.
And it's not even profitable, so the main purpose of this is to have fun at others expense.
But I'd not insist on calling it griefing. Some may argue that having this "wolves" and "sheeps" game is just a part of the world.

Griefing is exactly this: having fun at others expense.
By your definition even killing AFK tamers at Jhelom is not griefing.

Err, your latter statement does not jive with the prior, my friend. If you think being ganked isn't preventable....I'm guessing you die a lot.

Also how isn't it profitable? How would killing a PvM character *not* be profitable? Your entire purpose is to go farm gold off goofy monster AI. So it's actually more profitable to be a good red rather than a farmer, since you can more efficiently spend your time recalling thru hotspots and collecting 5, 10 or 15 monsters worth of loot off a single kill on a character that, a lot of the time, is easier to kill than the actual monsters themselves. You have 100 hp, and maybe you have some pots or whatever, but a couple guys syncing is it. A couple guys syncing probably wont blow up a dragon instantly, and even if they did; it's still the loot of *1* dragon.

Edit: Your attitude actually reveals why reds exist. A PvM character believing their fate is sealed the moment a red shows up only makes it easier for them. The reality is that if you stay on the ball you can avoid the vast majority of PKs, though technical issues(internet etc)can still get you there, just like with being house looted.

@Brick well, I'd really like to hear how is this preventable.

I mostly run on a full bard with resist but no eval, and no fighting skills.
Ping ~200-250ms. What exactly can I do, have recall precasted at all times?

Guys, let's hold up here a bit, we can't even actually be discussing this topic unless we each prove that we too were members of an online forum 20 years ago...

I don't disagree with Brick, but the tone is ridiculous.

It's a tone that comes after many many years of players doing exactly what I described. There are many members of said forum, including on the other most popular UO shard. A year or two back anyway! It's not like a big secret or anything, that forum is the source of numerous things, including Let's Plays!

It's not that you can't disagree, I'm really mostly just talking to Jimmy in this case in relation to a conversation in IRC the other day. He keeps denying what griefing is, my brief history was merely an attempt to show where the term developed most over the last couple decades. You could also bring up games like Habbo Hotel or Furcadia, but those weren't really "mmos" in the true sense of being a video game, more glorified chat rooms.

So I apologize if my tone came off too harsh, but I guess I just feel that if you weren't actively a part of the games that had the best and most entertaining griefing systems; you shouldn't be saying what the word does or doesn't mean.

UOR for the most part avoids the pitfalls, things like allowing custom clients/etc make it far easier to grief. But it's UO. Unless you completely neuter the system and we all live in Trammel, you *will* get griefed. The trick is not to get angry about it. It's a video game after all.

Quick edit: The reason I reached back in time, mostly, wasn't that Jimmy disagreed. It's how steadfast he is in a belief without knowing the full history behind it. Now if his argument was that it evolved over the years, or in my opinion, regressed; it would be a different story. But considering the purpose of this thread, that was not the case.

Lol, I don't think my fate is sealed. I'm prepared for reds to the max extent (both in terms of hotkeys and equip), I have a few tricks to distract them, but it's not always enough.
Sometimes I manage to run away and recall, sometimes I die, sometimes I come back on a PvP char and kick their ass. However, I will never be able to kill a prepared red on my bard. And this is what makes me sad about 700 skillcap (I played on no-skillcap shards in the past). In my world, a red on a 700 skillcap shard = jerk, because 90% of the time he attacks helpless targets.

Well think of it this way, having para pouches and hotkeys set and all that jazz is considered standard for a PK. Like you can't function without that pretty much. For me, 100 of each reg and 100+ pots is considered normal for a red. So if you don't have at least the equivalent to that + something else up your sleeve, the vast majority of the time you'll die.

If that red decides to use an alt or two, or coordinate with allies; your lack of preparation in the same regard dooms you. Say you always had a char with a gate macro to wherever you're farming, so all you have to do is run a few tiles to get to safety; providing you have all the regular anti-PK supplies...it will be pretty hard to kill you. Yeah syncs happen, but you could also prevent that with a hidden tracker. Which is also a strategy reds make use of.

EDIT: Okay so they could totally gate or recall beside you, but I've never had that happen and it's always been guys running from off screen with precasted magic or FS scrolls ready 2 go.

@Brick I do run prepared in terms of regs/pots/pouches/hotkeys, but haven't thought of gate macro, thanks for that :-D
Interestingly, haven't seen anyone here using it yet.

Not sure what you mean by "prevent that with a hidden tracker". AFAIK, tracking does not work against players here for a few months already.

Really? If that's the case I apologize, I haven't made one yet. I thought it was just ghost tracking that was banned, not that the skill was neutered lol. In that case, syncs would be harder to avoid, though you can still have hidden chars in key areas to get an idea of who's in your vicinity.

We have horses here and you can't be knocked off, so having an alt with gates ready will save you a lot of needless deaths. Plus, if you gate to an area with a guard zone, they might follow you through

Hmm, looking at the website this is what it says:

From Telamon: Tracking on Renaissance is the Trackers Tracking + Detect Hidden skill pitted against the Targets Hiding and Stealth Skills. So to track someone with no hiding or stealth with 21 tracking, would show you the target within a range of 21 tiles.

I don't remember any recent changes but I am still relatively fresh to this shard so you could definitely be right about it being changed in the last few months.

@Brick take a look at this thread about tracking http://uorforum.com/threads/how-tracking-works.28859/#post-291968

Ahh, so it's basically broken at the moment. No wonder it isn't mentioned in the official article hah.

Yeah I found Brick's post to be ridiculous. Almost grandstanding.
I must assume of course he's talking about the USENET group where it originated. Although I doubt he is.

Yet, I wasn't the one who made a thread on the forums after being told "you're wrong" in irc by a few people.

Wrong. Your consistent invention of definition and putting words in to my mouth is getting tiresome.

Not wrong, you proved my point by... making a thread about it. This is more akin to the reaction of a guy that got griefed than anyone who actually griefed themselves. It's quite telling.

Wrong again.
As stated in my OP, I made the thread after I discussed it in another thread. In fact, it received numerous likes, no one disagreed.

Oh @Brick you're just being silly now. It seems your intent is to derail the thread.

I've never claimed I was griefed publicly, no one has ever claimed I was griefing.
Trust me, if I felt I was being griefed I would speak to someone about it.

Tracking does indeed work quite effectively against players. I use it frequently to find and steal from them, as well as scout a little for others when I'm farming.

I was in IRC at the time, a few people did. And then a day or two later this thread appears.

I never implied you yourself said you were griefed, I was telling you my opinion on the kind of player you are.

You consistently imply that everyone uses the word incorrectly, yet you get all uppity when I do the same to you?

Nice double standard fella.

Edit: I feel like the irony is being lost on you that a guy that mains a thief is trying to say that 99% of gameplay in UO isn't "griefing". lol. (including being a thief)

@Brick

I "think" the point being not-quite-made is that using the term grief(er) is more often than not, a tool used by people in hopes to get back at someone else who got over on them somehow in game. To take it further, some people attempt to reach people of power in hopes to get the person in trouble or have the game changed.

Which imo, is bullshit and said person should be escorted to the edge of town and stoned to death with "bricks" marked with"u mad bro?".

A person that loots your house is not a griefer. To come to the forums and claim it as such is wrong.
A person that steals your holiday coins is not a griefer. To come to the forums and claim it as such is wrong.
A person that kills you, your pet, dry loots you, chops up your corpse, lights a camp fire, cooks, and eats your leg ... is not a griefer.


To come the forums and claim it as such is wrong. < - That's the problem.


also, @Brick I'm not sure if you're aware but the term "grief" is used by this server's rules and defined as a no-no offense that comes with penalty(ies) if found "guilty"

Which is why using the term to oust another player is a serious matter... hence the attempt at dialogue and one can only hope, social reform.