The common assumption among the people of Renaissance, is that summoned daemons have had a significant boost to their dispel resistance, to the benefit of PvM players. This is a desirable trait among the non-Tamer crowd, from what I can tell, even though I'm not a big fan of using summons in PvM in general. That said, there appears to be some undesirable consequences of the aforementioned boost. Dispelling a player's summoned daemon is ridiculously difficult, compared to OSI, in this time period. Even when using the higher level Mass Dispel spell, daemons are very likely to resist being dispelled. The problem herein, is players using summoned daemons in combat with other players. This changes the dynamics that PvP players have come to expect. Where once players would fight each other, now there's a lot of players resorting to summoning a daemon to fight for them, which could have historically been dispelled by any skilled mage, without subsequent attempts. It is commonly frowned upon in the PvP community to bring tames to a fight. The lighter side of that, is the tames can be slain repeatedly, reducing their effectiveness with each death. Summoned daemons however require no taming skill to control and yet, bring the power of a high level tame to any scenario that a GM mage sees fit. If there's reasonable argument for why this should remain as is, I'd love to hear it. Otherwise, can we please get a factor in place for player casted Dispel that matches OSI as closely as possible for this era. Cheers and thank you.
Where did you get this info? I disagree completely. Summons and tames and fields have been used historically to bust up clumped enemies. This has always been a great utility. This is a good thing that adds depth to UO pvp. If you look through death histories you won't see players killed by daemons in large battles. Because daemons aren't threatening enough to kill even the newest pvpers. Where are the daemons? http://www.uorenaissance.com/player/log/4858/Death/50/Date_New Just walk away from them. They can however be used to force a group to move off a position. You need to learn to move and compose yourself again as a group. Thinking pvp needs to be redesigned so you can all stand in one position with explosions held holding down nearest orange and get a victory is foolish. Remember that variety is the spice of life and attempting to reduce UO pvp into some '4 versus 4 in a duel arena under rules you desire and only when you're ready for it to happen' box is not going to be fun for long. Better yet, stop making excuses for yourself. UO pvp is gritty and you have to learn to adapt to the battlefield or retreat to a better position. I see you and bart over the last couple days making jokes about tamers in pvp like it has had anything to do with lost battles this week. Stop being a sore loser. Pull up your bootstraps and try harder. Just logging on once a year to follow around guys like Sandro/Roman and Jleem/Budou does not make you a pvper and you'll never learn to fight while clinging to their coattails. Do you see those guys in IRC making excuses? They aren't so insecure about their skills. "If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected .” -translation from The Art of War by Sun Tzu
While I see you're intent on making this a trash talk thread, this isn't about redesigning PvP. It's about getting things working as they are supposed to. You know yourself that daemons are harder to dispel here than OSI and it makes it something it never was. No need to be coy because you have a personal problem with me. Many have learned to adapt, but not all of us want to adapt the way you have since you first griped about cr3w using them in factions over two years ago. Adapting by making use of summoned daemons to the point of excess, that isn't even actually players versus players anymore, is not a desirable path for many players. "Reducing" UO PvP to actual players fighting players, is not a bad thing, even if that were the intention here. Making Dispel work properly on these summons won't stop you from using them, it will just make it less effective for you to use in situations that you would otherwise be dying in. Thanks for your time.
Furthermore, I'm wondering if perhaps this is related: http://www.runuo.com/community/threads/having-some-difficulties-with-dispel.531852/ Just a thought.
I'm speaking as candidly as I can. I recognize this easily as a "i only lost because of something" thread. Out of four large battles I had the time to take part in this weekend I only saw daemons in one. They had no bearing on the fight other than intimidation. You even knew they were coming a full minute ahead of time and could have been prepared to move your position or use some other strategy. To say that they were used in excess and that any of those battles came down to summons fighting and players not fighting is totally false and you know it. I have plenty of personal problems with you, but I am here to attack your argument and not your person. I encourage you to defend your argument instead of trying to dodge my reply. Are daemons killing players in group pvp settings and can you provide some evidence aside from vague testimonies? Is it not possible to walk away from daemons or change your position? What evidence do you have that tames/fields/summons have not traditionally had a place in UO pvp aside from suggesting there are pvpers that say otherwise? Do you think it's possible the pvp you're seeking is in some other format like a duel arena with agreed upon rules? Your argument is based on some appeal to authority, that you know some unnamed authority pvp figure(s) that agree with your argument. If daemons are such a problem then why are other groups not having trouble with them?
Just my two cents here... I summoned a daemon and attempted to dispel it to test how difficult it was. After 7 attempts of casting dispel I was finally able to remove the beast. 7 attempts seems a bit much and not at all how it was on osi. Perhaps the coding is off in some way?
This thread was not spurred based on any recent events, so don't waste your time making assumptions. Your daemons were useless this weekend which is why they only showed up once. This has been an ongoing conversation in the pvp community for years now. One that I started hearing straight from your own mouth. Daemon dispelling has been a problem here for years and I think the root cause can be found to restore what is more commonly accepted and understood in this era of UO. I honestly have no idea why you posited so many other variables such as death by daemons, walking speed, etc. This has nothing to do with those factors and everything to do with their resistance to Dispel. I think it is out of line with what is expected of the era and feel that change is in order. I don't think anyone's having great trouble with them, just that they are annoying and should be able to be dispelled with more ease by any GM Mage. In consideration of bart's recent test, I'd be inclined to think perhaps they are still dialed for 120 Skill shards or something like that. For what it's worth, there have been a lot of fun battles lately and I think anyone would be hard pressed to accurately define a win or loss on either side. Unless of course you count the loss of the majority of the Chaos characters we had recently fought....
What I don't understand is who are you fighting who has demons summoned all the time? I can recall summoning a demon once this week and never bothered to recast for the rest of the fights that night. So is the whole "using demons in excess" about the one time they were used this week or are you fighting someone else who is frequently using them? Edit: posted this after only reading the first couple posts, hadn't realized it was already brought up.
The argument isn't about who is summoning daemons. It is about the ability to dispel daemons, plane and simple.
Yeah, sorry dude, "in excess" is a reference to the cumulative total times I've seen them put to use. The term is subjective of course but an aside from the ultimate point of the thread: Daemons are too hard to dispel and I think that should be corrected to what is expected of the era.
But the point was made that they "are being used in excess". That's simply untrue, which leads me to believe that the issue is being embellished to try to force a change and I don't think that's the right way to go about making changes.
I agree that daemons are difficult to dispel. That doesn't mean there aren't more ways to deal with them. After a couple attempts you may realize a different approach is in order and I don't mean try to ask Telamon for help. I'm sorry, what does this mean? I was only at about four battles this weekend but I haven't seen or heard of any chaos losses. We either were the last ones on the battlefield while order left as ghosts without loot, or in one instance we attacked 7v14, scored 5-6 kills and some loot and gated out before you could get your acts together and kill anyone. You'd have to move the goal posts pretty far to not call them all wins.
Dude you tried to say it has changed pvp here in its entirety, you can't just take that back now. So now you're slinging lies in hopes to change a shard you barely even play on.
It would seem there was a great drop in number of Chaos players that may have corrected itself by now. I've ignored whatever drivel about numbers you posted in the end of your reply, Mes, as it has nothing to do with daemon dispel. I never said it changed PvP in its entirety, Kane, please make up stories for yourself, not me. I said it changes the dynamic and I don't feel it is appropriate. That dynamic being group fights with siege elements. Historically, while summons may have been used, they were not as prevalent BECAUSE they were dispelled easier and thus were more often than not, a waste of time and mana. I'm not slinging lies and your information about where I play is false and entirely off topic. Keep stroking it though. Why not approach me in game again to ask about other shards? Or is your dick still sore from getting slapped for it last time?
Great. Then let's talk about daemon dispel. Make your case and don't be vague. Please answer my questions above.
I've made my case clearly: The difficulty to dispel daemons at the present configuration is a negative impact on the dynamic of the player versus player scenarios where they come into play. This is no way suggests there are not alternatives to dealing with the daemons or that they are ruining anything. I feel they are overpowered for their mana cost and should be able to be dispelled with the same success rates one would have experienced in this era on production servers. I'm not asking Telamon for help. I'm asking Telamon to correct the success rate of Dispel on daemons because their current configuration makes them prone to excessive use where otherwise they would not be.
So is this your argument then? Era accuracy? As I recall daemons were pretty easily dispelled with mass dispel during the period of renaissance where there was no follower limit. Past that point summons of all types were more resistant to dispel.
I couldn't find any documentation on it via a handful of quick forum searches however I am fairly certain that I raised the difficulty rate for dispelling summoned daemons, if not all 8th circle summons above their default settings long ago. It must have been overlooked & never made it into the patch notes when that change took place tho unless i'm just blind & wasn't able to find it http://uorforum.com/threads/two-daemons.2126/#post-13174 That was the closest reference to anything dispel difficulty related I could find posted from my old account, 99.9% sure I changed them & made them more resistant to being dispelled since the default RunUO settings for it we're rather laughable imo considering the differences in mana cost for dispel (which is essentially an "insta-kill" so to speak) vs 8th tier summons
